The RTO Show "Let's talk Rent to Own"
Ever wondered how a $8.5 billion industry keeps millions of Americans lounging in style? Step into "The RTO Show Podcast" – where the mysterious world of Rent to Own furniture finally spills its secrets! Your host Pete Shau isn't just any industry veteran – he's spent 20 years in the trenches, collecting the kind of stories that'll make you laugh, gasp, and maybe even rethink everything you knew about that couch you're sitting on.
From wild customer tales to industry shake-ups that'll knock your rented socks off, Pete brings the seemingly mundane world of furniture financing to vibrant life. Warning: This isn't your typical business podcast – expect real talk, unexpected laughs, and "aha!" moments that'll have you looking at every lease agreement in a whole new light.
Whether you're an RTO pro who knows your depreciation schedules by heart, or you're just curious about how that fancy sectional ended up in your living room, Pete's got the inside scoop you never knew you needed. Tune in and discover why the furniture business is anything but boring!
The RTO Show "Let's talk Rent to Own"
40 Years of Fighting for an Industry: Ed Winn's RTO Legacy
Ed Wynn, the legendary legal architect behind rent-to-own's regulatory framework, shares his extraordinary four-decade journey protecting an industry that many lawmakers never fully understood. Fresh into retirement after serving as APRO's legal counsel since its inception, Wynn offers unprecedented insights into how a collection of rental dealers transformed into a sophisticated national organization.
The conversation reveals fascinating origin stories, including how APRO literally began in Wynn's law office with just one secretary. We explore the delicate dance of state-level legislation where, in exchange for accepting regulation and disclosure requirements, the industry secured crucial protection from being recharacterized as credit sales. Wynn walks us through multiple attempts to establish federal legislation—coming tantalizingly close in both 1983 and 2001—while explaining why many Republican lawmakers surprisingly cautioned against federal oversight.
Perhaps most compelling is Wynn's candid discussion of rental theft prosecution, where he shares unconventional but effective strategies for working with reluctant district attorneys. "Go to the DA's website," Wynn advises, "find the law firm that made the largest contributions to his last election, hire somebody from that firm, and get a meeting." This pragmatic approach to political realities perfectly illustrates how Wynn navigated complex challenges throughout his career.
As virtual rent-to-own emerges as the industry's growth frontier, Wynn provides critical context about recent legal victories that affirm the "no obligation" foundation of these transactions. His assessment of today's legal climate and thoughts on the incoming administration offer valuable perspective for anyone connected to rental businesses.
Whether you're a rental operator seeking to understand your industry's legal foundations or simply fascinated by how specialized industries navigate regulatory challenges, this conversation offers rare wisdom from someone who truly shaped an entire business sector. Subscribe now to hear more industry insights from leaders who've been in the trenches!
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Hello everybody, welcome to the RTO Show podcast. I'm your host, pete Chow, and today we're talking to Ed Wynn, the newly retired legal counsel for APRO, who just as of February, decided to take a step back and retire after 40 long years in the rental own industry. Thank God that he's been around here that long, because Lord knows that we've needed it. He's been instrumental in getting things done, and I mean starting from beginning, ed. Where did APRO start? I mean, it was absolutely almost nothing when you started, or nothing when you started, and then you helped it come along from its infancy all the way to where it is now. Where did you start so?
Speaker 2:the first AgPro office was in my law office. I hired a secretary On we went.
Speaker 3:So when you say FRDA, right, the Furniture Rent-A-Dealer Association and that wasn't the RDAs that we normally speak of, because we talk about Rent-A-Dealer Association, as in the Florida Rent-A-Dealer Association, the Missouri association, the missouri renter dealer association, you know the, the new york renter dealer association, how did those come about? When you get this literally from ground up on april and you get and you start being their legal counsel, where did the rdas come from? Was that a? Was that a break off of what you had done there in texas?
Speaker 2:frda long predated rent. I've been around, I'm going to suppose since the 50s and they were. There were I don't know four or five or six purely furniture rental companies. They rented by the month only and they rented to visiting executives. Sometimes they had ownership options, sometimes they didn't, and it sort of went to I mean that was the name.
Speaker 2:It was a national trade association, frda, furniture Rental Dealers of America. They had a general counsel who may have been in Atlanta, may have been in DC. He and I used to talk. That trade association may or may not exist, I don't know. Now the state groups came into existence. Your Florida and Texas came into existence over the course of time as we as ACRO facilitate enacting state laws, the very first one of which came into existence in 1983, michigan, and there may have been a Michigan Rental Leaders I don't know Michigan Rental Leaders Association. That kind of came and went. They came into existence long enough to get the laws passed and then they went away and it's been a struggle, at least in some states, to keep those state associations going.
Speaker 3:Some obviously are very successful Florida the Midwest guys, nebraska I could name the ones if I was looking at a list that had been successful over the years, but it's also been. California, for example, is a troublesome state from many points of view and we've never been very good at getting a state association to sustain itself in that state, for example. Is that because of the state laws or is it because the people in that state or the business owners in that state have varying different views and kind of don't see eye to eye, so that they don't be able, they're not able to sit down around on a round table and say this is the things that we want to enact or this is what we want to do. So is it more of a company situation or is it more that the state laws created to be a little bit more difficult to operate in a state or to hold a dealer association?
Speaker 2:Well, those state associations came into existence in order to get the laws passed and rental dealers rarely fought over the wording in those laws, although there were some, you know. Some guys said, oh geez, I wish we had higher late fees and I don't like this part of the law and I don't like that part of the law. But the quid pro quo in all of those state laws was, in exchange for submitting to government regulation and making disclosures, having to be registered, having to be licensed, whatever those regulations required, in exchange for submitting to that, we want protection from lawsuits. We don't want to be run out of business by being recharacterized as a credit sale. So all of those state laws say a rent-only transaction is this and it's not a credit sale conditional sale, installment sale, security interest under Article 9. And that was the deal that we struck when we were getting these laws passed. So the groups came together to go to the state capitals to get the laws passed.
Speaker 2:Once the law got passed they went back to rent TVs. They weren't interested in going to meetings. So the state associations kind of dissolved.
Speaker 3:One of the big aspects of it is having somebody who's really willing to kind of not only rent and collect on the TVs but stay true to the actual meetings and making sure the minutes are taken and going through the action and the motions to keep it active.
Speaker 2:States that have had a champion somebody who wants to have a state association have been able to keep it going. States that will lose their champion because he sells his company or they never could find one, they've had trouble sustaining themselves.
Speaker 3:So, talking about the current legal climate and what's going on, of course we have a new administration right now. It's right around the corner. We're right before LegCon. We plan on going to DC to make sure that we advocate for rent to own With the current administration that's in office. Do you see that as a? You know, there's been a big talk about Trump being very you know, let's take out regulation, let's let's work more in the state level, let's get things moving. Is that? Do you see this administration as a better move for rent to own overall, or is that possibly something that might hurt us in the long run with the tariffs and some of the regulations that they might add later on in?
Speaker 2:your opinion. Well, my personal view is it's only a good thing Having Trump in the White House will be good for RTO, because if he's left to his own devices, he'll put the CFPB out of business. Yes, and if the prices of TVs rise, if guys are buying TVs from China and tariffs hit wholesale prices, they'll just pass them on. I mean, that's not going to. That ain't going to hurt the business, I don't think.
Speaker 3:The CFPB, of course, is one of the things that you know. One of the topic points was going to come up because I actually agree with you. I think that he'd be on the other side of it to deregulate or to cut that all together to make sure that it doesn't impede on some of the things that can help growth. So we still have the situations and the bills that are coming up in New York that are kind of going towards that regulation. Do you see that still happening as a state level or that can that? Do you think that might even be corrected as a federal level?
Speaker 2:And then it kind of covers on the state level thought Well, when ACR got started, the goal was to get a federal law passed and have RTO recognized as its own distinct transaction, separate and apart from the credit. And we tried and we spent a lot of money in DC with lobbyists over the years and we were never successful. We came close in 1983. We got a bill through the Senate. We came close again in 2001. We got a bill barely passed through the House. Republican after Republican said listen, you guys don't live in Washington DC, you do not want federal regulation and we're not going to help you get it because it's a mistake. And obviously the Democrats hated Rendon anyway just when they woke up in the morning. So we snuck a bill. Really the vote was like three. We got that bill passed. We didn't pass the bill. We got it through the House by maybe three votes. It died in the Senate in 2001. We had a public hearing in 2005, and the industry sort of abandoned the federal effort.
Speaker 2:After that. We had a fool with Dodd-Frank and the creation of the CFPB. In 2010, we were able to keep RTO out of that law and that bureau. But that's not been a serious issue and I don't think it's going to ever be a serious issue. It costs too much money We'd have to spend. I don't know what the number would be now. I used to say it would cost us $10 to $20 million to get a federal law passed and we were spending $1 to $2 million. We weren't spending enough money. There's no telling what it would cost now to get a federal law and really my view is we don't need one, that we've got all these state laws and they're working. So we're going to have some rear guard actions in the states like New York, but we'll beat those back. I don't see New York changing the law or any other state unraveling the existing regulatory environment. That's just not a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know that Charles Smitherman and the CEO of April and the guys in the New York Rental Dealer Association, jeff Smith and the rest of them, are working on that. You know, constantly to get that taken back. Uh, once it came back in session I know they were working very hard with a lot of other companies in that area to kind of to kind of what's going on Now. I meant to ask you, cause I really don't know this and that I'm possibly going to learn this as we go, as I, as I do more rent to own, I know in Florida we have statute 812.155. I do more rent to own. I know in Florida we have statute 812.155. Is that a statute that is, or has a sister statutes like that in other states that kind of read the same, or are they all completely different?
Speaker 2:What statute are you referring to? In Florida, just the RTO statutes.
Speaker 3:We know the criminal notice part of it Correct, it's a third degree felony to keep rental merchandise.
Speaker 2:Florida is unique in requiring that disclosure in the rental agreements, having to having to notify customers that oh, by the way, if you steal TVs it might be a crime. No other state requires that and Florida's had a checkered history regarding theft of rental property. It's been outlawed, it's been brought back. It's been outlawed, it's been brought back. These days you can do it. It's a live issue for the RTO industry. There are guys who think you should never file criminal charges against rental thieves. There are other guys who say, hey, somebody steals my TV, I want them in the penitentiary. So the industry's split over that issue. And Texas did away with theft of rental property for RTO. It's gone in South Carolina, it's gone in Virginia, it's gone in Connecticut and, so far as I know, it's alive and well in the other states, depending on whether you can get your district attorney to take to prosecute.
Speaker 3:So that was actually going to be. My next question is I know that in several occasions, depending on the county that you're in, you can have them be full force and with you and you can get things done, and very legally I mean nothing outside of the lines but then you have counties that are a little bit more liberal, a little bit more ease at that, and they don't quite enforce that. Is there any way to really tackle that from a legal standpoint, when you have something that's been on the books, has been on the book, but they're not enforcing it?
Speaker 2:Here's my advice when dealers call and they're pissed off because the DA won't prosecute rental thieves, my advice to them is, or has been go to the DA's website, because on that website will be a list of all of the contributors. Those guys run for office. That's an elected office. So if you got a DA you don't like vote for the other guy next. But in the meantime look to see who the major contributors to the existing DA were in the last election and they're going to all be law firms. That's who is interested in getting DAs elected or not, Nobody else cares.
Speaker 2:So go to that list, see who the find the law firm that makes the largest contribution, that made the largest contributions to the DA. Hire somebody out of that law firm and say get me a meeting with the DA. And you go sit down with the district attorney and a lawyer from the law firm that gave him the most money in his last election and lay your case out and say, hey, I don't want you to do my collections, but every now and again I want you to prosecute somebody. That's read the word. That can't steal TVs from rental dealers with impunity. And it will be very hard for the DA across the table from his biggest political contributor to say, no, you're going to be able to work a deal.
Speaker 3:So the idea is to tackle them where it hurts, not exactly go head to head in the law situation. Find out who their constituents are, find out who's given them the money to reelect and then approach it publicly, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Politics, politics. I've done it in Texas in a couple of counties. I've gone and met with the DA and negotiated the deal. One time the DA said yeah, I understand. This is back before the law changed. He said I'll tell you what I'll do. Once a quarter, bring me your best case and I'll prosecute. And the other county, the other DA, said I'll tell you what. As long as the guy has paid less than half on the deal, I'm willing to prosecute if you've got the facts. So you can't persuade everybody. There are some dyed in the wool liberal district attorneys who are not going to help you. But if you play the political game you can make headway.
Speaker 3:So this is something new for me. We're going to LegCon this April and we're going to be talking to a brand new administration. I've only done this one year, so I'm just kind of used to the old administration. I don't know anything about it. When you're going into LegCon, we're going to go see these people, whether it's on the state level or whether it's on the federal level.
Speaker 3:On the state level, you can have a new governor or, you know, you can switch from a Republican to Democrat or, you know, democrat to Republican. Same thing like we're doing at basically the federal level. We've gone from a Democratic president to a Republican president. There's a lot of changes. Is there something that we should do when the changes are? It's not like one of those eight-year listings where we've gone seven years out of the eight years and it's been the same presidency, it's been the same kind of people. When you're going to a completely different cabinet, you're going to a completely different thought process between one party and the next. Do you have any advice for that? When you're coming in, you haven't really seen anybody that you had seen before, and this is all brand new. Is there some way that you would tackle it to basically put the flare out there and say hey, look at us, look at where we are and have that best foot forward.
Speaker 2:Well, every election, every election cycle, every two years, the makeup of Congress changes by about a third. You get a third new bodies in there. Whether you change from R to D or D to R, there are brand new people in Washington DC with brand new jobs regulating your world. And you want to go up there and make friends. And the chances are they've been to Ivy League colleges and have never heard of Rent to Own. So it's been this way for 25 years that we're not trying to get anything out of the Congress. We're not asking them really to do anything. We're up there to make friends and to make sure that nothing bad happens.
Speaker 2:So my counsel and when I go and sit with rental leaders at those meetings is I want them to have a rent-to-own story, explain what it is that they do and why it is that they do, and some good emotional tales of customers that you helped. They make a good story. Everybody's got one, everybody's got pockets full, probably, and that's all you're doing. You're just making friends. I don't think you have to do anything radical because we got a new Republican administration. You're going to go and tell a written story because it's a good story and a lot of people hadn't worried.
Speaker 3:So, going back to the retirement piece, Edwin, who has been on legal counsel for 40 years, doing amazing things over these past decades on making rent to own and helping rent to own be what it is Talking about the retirement are you going to be at any one of these lunch con events, or is this? Are you done with that too? Are you going to patch that torch on to the ones who are trying to do it?
Speaker 2:I passed the torch. Smitherman is a lawyer and a good administrator and a PhD, and he's running APRO like a smooth ship through the water, so I left APRO in very good hands.
Speaker 3:I'll agree with you. I really like Charles. I like what he's doing with APRO. I like the people that he's kind of put around himself as far as a team that he has. They're very close, they're very dedicated. I've seen a lot of changes in April in the last you know year or so. That feels like Charles been around for a lot longer than that, but you know he's been around for a long time enough to make the changes that's needed so that you can you can see from from what happened before he was there till after and how everything interacts. It's going very well. So I will say I agree with you 100%. So you're in Texas now.
Speaker 3:Correct Texas since 1976, Austin so out in Texas when rent-to-own started kicking off. And you're talking about the Talley's. I mean, I came along when Talley still had Renner's Choice and before he passed he was a very dear person in my eyes, although I never met him. You know, I learned rent-to-own under that business, under that company, and everything went. So as you start expanding and APRO starts growing, how is it that you get more states to come to the table Now that you know you start this organization and rent-to-own starts growing? Right, it starts expanding, it's in different states and now it's pretty much everywhere, except for maybe what two states now it's Minnesota.
Speaker 2:There's no rent-to-own in Minnesota because of how the law reads. There's one dealer in Wisconsin again because of how the law reads and there's very little rent-to-own in New Jersey, again because those states don't have effective rent to own legislation. Those three.
Speaker 3:So rent to own is expanding and you have this organization that's starting to bring people in to gather. How do you get those new states or a state in to be a part of this? What is the way that we let them know hey, this is a great idea, your RDA is a great idea, but we also want to do this as a collective. How did they get them in and how did we get the birth of APRO off the ground and growing?
Speaker 2:Well, I know growth these days is virtual, that's true. It ain't brick and mortar. Yeah, guys are open in a few stores, maybe storefronts, but the real growth is VRTO, which will one day dwarf the brick and mortar guys or at least be equal to them. And membership in APRO is by company. So we're not states aren't members, and APRO has a very active marketing campaign that they're always on the lookout for new entrants into the business. And how they're doing that I don't know these days I'm not keeping up with that. But when they hear of somebody who is new to the business, they send them April stuff, say, hey, come join the club, we'll make your business better and we'll make it safer. We'll make your business better and we'll make it safer.
Speaker 2:The problem is that not everybody understands. I mean, I equate belonging to APRO like having insurance we're going to make sure nothing bad happens to you. Well, we're not putting money in your pocket, we're taking money out of your pocket. And that's a hard sell for some rental dealers. They don't want to spend money, they don't have have to spend and some people just won't.
Speaker 2:But there's some big guys out there with 100 plus stores who have just told me, even though I ask them every time I talk to them or did you need to join Acro? No, not going to do it, not going to do it. I'll take care of my own business and let somebody else fund Acro. That's just how trade associations, nationally trade associations the last time I looked there are 30,000 or 40,000 trade associations. Average membership in national trade associations 50% and APRO's got a much higher percentage. We're 70% or 80% of existing rental dealers are members of APRO, so we're doing a pretty good job. Historically we've done a pretty good job getting people to belong. They understand the risks and there's some outliers and you know we keep trying to get them and maybe we will.
Speaker 3:Maybe we won't, who knows, technically retired, but you kind of you're the go-to source right now. I mean, you have all these years of knowledge with everything that's going on in the world, the CFPB what's happening with the administration changes? What do?
Speaker 2:you think, legally, is rent-to-owns biggest hurdle coming up within the next year? I don't think we got any serious legal hurdles. We're going to have a New York pop up every now and again, but we haven't had a stink battle trying to think Vermont was the very last state to have enacted meaningful, comprehensive rent-to-own legislation. That was in 2015. So it's been a decade before a state rent-to-own issue has popped up. The New York bill is not going to go anywhere. I mean, we have a very good, effective rent on statute. It's been amended in New York state, so they're not going to. No state has unraveled a rent-to-own law and so here's an effort to try to do that. It will not be successful, I suppose, if I had to speculate.
Speaker 2:The theft issue pops up from time to time. It's politically somewhat of a hot potato. The liberals can make hay with it. You know Welfare Mother does 30 days for failure to return. Read it on TV. So it's got a little political panache if you want to try to do away with it. And, quite frankly, the industry could survive and prosper if you didn't have that law, if you didn't have the criminal solution to rebel feverily South Carolina. We haven't been able to put people in jail in South Carolina since 1983, past the RTO statute there. Nobody has ever been able to tell me that rental dealers make less money in South Carolina than anywhere else. So I've lived with that 45 years and I understand that. When we have polled rental dealers half the guys say I've never filed criminal charges and I never would. But 80% say we like that law on the books. We don't want it taken away from us, Just in case that's the only live, that there are some issues there and how they're doing.
Speaker 2:When we got those walls passed state by state, we went with three arguments no obligation, keep rate and we fix it. It's our stuff, We'll fix it for you. And those were persuasive arguments. And the keep rate in the brick and mortar stores weekly business under 30%, monthly business under 50%. So most people are giving the stuff back. We are honest to God and we're not in the pretend.
Speaker 2:So the virtual guys came along in the I don't know the teens, the 2000 teens because the payday money was running scared, there was a lot of payday money. They were changing those laws. So they came and said, hey, we're going to do red tone. I was feeling a call a week and they said we got a website, we're going to do red tone. I said, great, only going to rent to the people who pay. And so virtual was born.
Speaker 2:Well, virtual does have no obligation, but it won't fix the property unless the law dictates it. And the keep rate is high I don't know how high. They're kind of cagey about that, but they ain't picking up much stuff. They can't pick up much stuff. So what's important, I think and that's been a live issue, in my mind at least, or was until I retired Last fall a Utah federal court judge said in a case against one of the big virtual companies. He said as long as the contract has a no obligation provision and the customer can give it back at any time, I don't care what happens after that, I don't care what the keep rate is, I don't care whether they pick it up, I don't care what happens in the four corners of the document. The customer's not obligated to keep making payments. It is not credit, and so that sort of, at least for the moment, has answered that question. Will that stand the test of time? I don't know, and I don't have to.
Speaker 3:Right now you get to say it's okay, I don't need to know that. So when the dealers say, okay, not necessarily going to press the charges, but having that on the books, to say that it is a possibility, that is a recourse, even though we might not take that recourse, does that make it and I know they're completely separate from a civil situation and a criminal situation does that give a leeway to a judge or legally to say we could prosecute criminally, we're not going to, but we just want to get either the payments out of this or the product back? Does that give them a little bit more leeway to say, okay, we'll file it civilly, we could be doing this criminally, we're not going to work with us. Is that kind of like how it can work or is it could just completely? Let's just do civil, not worry about it.
Speaker 2:I'm sure from time to time, rental dealers are at the doorstep saying if you don't give me back my TV, I'm going to have you breaking rocks in the hot sun. I mean that's. I'm sure that those words are spoken, but I thought they should be You're not supposed to threaten criminal prosecution. You can do it. You can file criminal charges. You're not supposed to threaten it, but I'm sure that that happens. And so what dealers?
Speaker 2:As I say, reasonable minds differ about that and I used to say when I came along there were no laws. I was trying to get laws passed and I thought we were vulnerable and I didn't go with my chest puffed out. I went hat in hand to the legislature saying listen, we're honest, guys, we're making a living, we're making people's lives better and we need this law. And I told rental dealers I said it's going to make my job and the job of everybody who's trying to make rent on legal a lot harder If we wake up one morning and read in the newspaper welfare mom does 30 days in jail for failure to return rented TV. That's going to make it harder to get the laws passed. And so I said don't do it. And guys said mind your own business, wynn, you know I got a business to run and people steal my TVs. I'm going to buy a gun. Get them back or I'm going to get a pound of flesh. So that's been a debate for as long as I've been around and it's going to continue to be around.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's definitely a hot potato. I mean you don't want to. It's certainly a case-by-case. When you try to look at a situation and go, okay, what do I do here? What is the right move? Is it intentional or non-intentional? Who's on the other end of this? But then you also have to think if I let this situation go, is it going to hurt my business to the point because other things are going to follow the suit to this activity? In other words, is somebody going to follow it because it's there to follow, or is it the right thing to do and we legally go down this road because it's what we're owed and what the customer signed on to? There's so much to that and going from state to state thinking. Everybody has their different laws and everybody approaches it differently. There are a few states that do that rent to rent. Can you give me a reason as to why those particular states do rent to rent versus a rent to own transaction? Is there a particular legal reason why they can't do a rent toown?
Speaker 2:I'm not aware of anybody seriously doing rent-to-rent other than roll yards, lawnmowers and backhoe diggers, to my knowledge at least, vibrant rent-to-rent industry of TVs, appliances and furniture, other than there's a shadow of the executive furniture rentals. They rent an apartment full of furniture at a time for three rooms. That's still out there, I think, but it's tiny. Rent to rent is not vibrant in any state that I know of, other than, as I say, the rental yards tents that stuff.
Speaker 3:You're putting together everything that's happened. You're putting together what's happening now and you're looking forward and going. I don't have anything on the docket, I don't have anything lined up, I don't have anything for the next few months or years. How do you put away 40 years of being really one of the better parts of APRO, being one of the backbone members of APRO, to not being able to do? Now I say that I'm not 40 years into it, so it might be easier to say you know, I can put my head up and walk away with my head held high, but how do you get away from that? How does your normal day to day work now that you've been able to go through that and then say, okay, I'm done, do you still get that calling? Do you still get that calling that you know make the phone calls or find out what's going on, or look on the computer or read the newspaper? How does that feel now that you're at the end of things?
Speaker 2:Well, you'd be surprised. It's fairly easy to walk away. I'm still sorting out what to do next, but I'm not hawking the rent only. You know I used to have to wake up every single morning of my life and scroll through 200 RTO alerts on Google for news about the industry. I had to look at all the bills we've got. April's got a service that has a computerized retrieval system from every legislature in the country, so we have keywords. There are 35 or so phrases in terms. Keywords they're 35 or so phrases in terms and I would have to review all of those bills. That popped through Incredible numbers of bills over the last few years about rent, on housing, for example, but I had to make sure that they didn't touch us.
Speaker 2:I don't do that now. I'm not, you know it's gone. It's gone. You don't miss that at all. No, shit, no, I don't miss it. I mean I didn't have to. They didn't run me off. You don't miss that at all. Put a lot of energy in it. I thought fine, you know I'll find something else to do. I haven't yet, but I'm not ruining the day that I retire. I feel fine about it.
Speaker 3:So I've got one last question and I'm just curious. When we were emailing, to kind of get on this, I see that you still have the law firm email. Are you still part of the law firm or have you retired all the way, that's?
Speaker 2:just my email. I did that just without changing email and I've rented an office and I have an office, but I'm not a lawyer, I'm a citizen of the world.
Speaker 3:Well, I want to tell you, mr Wynn, we are so appreciative of everything that you've done from the point of APRO's inception throughout the years and letting us know what's going on, to giving the great advice that you've given over the years as far as what to do, how to do it, getting people aboard and keeping an eye on all these things. I mean, I'm certainly curious. I kind of feel like you do. I don't think New York is going to go very far. I do think that we have a lot of legs on the ground that's going to really kind of tackle this and keep it where it's at. But you know there's, you know, like any good bet, there's always the underdog, there's always the other side, there's always something that can come out on the other end. So I do, you know, keep on top of it as best as I can and try to report on it when I can. But I'm with you, I like doing that.
Speaker 3:It's great to have been a rent to own and everything that's happening. You know, I do wonder how this new administration going forward is going to help us or hinder us. I don't know if one or either way, I'd like to say that I think the deregulation and some of the ideas that are coming forward, especially with the CFPB possibly, you know, taking some of that power back and not having to worry about that as much can really change how we, how we do the things fundamentally and grow throughout the next few years, and I'm hoping that it just stays that way because we're at your own is is. You know, it's an industry that has a lot of good people trying to do a lot of good things and I just want to keep that. You know going and and people like you seeing, seeing someone like you retire they go. Man, one of the greats has gone. Was there like a passing of the torch ceremony? When you left, did you get Charles the torch?
Speaker 2:as things happened, Well, charles comes to Austin, I don't know how often once a quarter, once every couple of months and we try to get lunch together when he does. I stay in touch with Charles as needs be, but he ain't picking up the phone calling me worrying about that. He knows how to do this job. He's been at it two or three years and it's working. It's working. So you know, it was a lot of fun. It was a fun ride, it was good to me and I did the best I could. I showed up every day and there, now I'm done. Now I'm done Well.
Speaker 3:I tell you what we're every day and there, now I'm done. Now I'm done. Well, I tell you what we're going to miss you at LitchCon this year. I'm going to be going with some other people from Florida and some of the other people that I know, some of the colleagues that I have across the country, and it's going to be great. I can't wait to see everything that's going on. I know that you've probably forgotten more about it than I've ever seen, but the truth is going in my second year I'm looking forward to more of what I you know.
Speaker 3:When you first go, you don't even really know what to expect. They know what people tell you when you read on it. Going there and actually being in DC was my first time in DC and I really like it was. It was just a whole take in. Now I think I'm a little bit more streamlined and I can. I kind of know what to expect, who I'm going with Some of the things that I want to say.
Speaker 3:Like you said, have a good story. At least come up with two or three and have one in the back pocket just in case. Let them know that we are here doing the best we can. But I just want to say I really appreciate everything that you've done at APRO, everything you've done for N2Own. I appreciate you being on the show and I will tell you guys, if you want to be a part of what's going on at Legicon, please reach out to April. If you want to reach out to us here at the show, pete at the RTOShowPodcastcom. If you want to ask Ed a question and you don't have his email, it's okay. You can DM the RTOShow and if it's a good question, I will pass it on to Ed and see if he has time to stop from the retirement to slow down just enough to answer a question. We really appreciate it. Hit us up on Facebook on.
Speaker 2:Instagram. See us on YouTube. Mr Ed, I really appreciate you being with us today. Good work with your RTO show. By the way, You're doing a good job.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sir. And I will tell you guys, as always, get your collections low to get your sales high. Have a great one.
