RTO Legend: Brad Denison of Benefit Marketing Solutions (BMS)

Law can feel abstract until it touches a living room. We sit down with Brad, former general counsel turned vendor advocate, to unpack how rent-to-own won its legal identity as a lease—not credit—and why that nuance still shapes access to appliances, furniture, and electronics across America. From class actions to bankruptcy fights, he walks us through the “obligation” test that swayed courts, the model legislation that spread to 47 states, and the trench-level tactics that moved skeptical lawmakers with real stories from customers and even music dealers.

The tour hits the hot spots: Minnesota’s chilling court ruling despite a statute, Wisconsin’s near‑victory blocked at the governor’s desk, and California’s hard compromises that traded flexibility for formal recognition. We talk candidly about why stricter rules can shrink access without lowering costs, how Better Business Bureau data contradicted old narratives, and why a happy renter is the best regulator. Brad credits APRO and strong state associations for decades of steady, unglamorous work—relationship‑building, code‑of‑conduct norms, and ongoing education in D.C.—that kept the industry stable and consumers informed.

Switching to the vendor view, Brad details how Benefit Marketing Solutions strengthens the safety net: unemployment payment waivers, restoration after fire or theft, accidental damage coverage, and telemedicine that saves time and money. These benefits protect families when life hits hard and help stores reduce churn by preserving progress toward ownership. The throughline is clear: when statutes are clear, service is ethical, and vendors add real protections, rent‑to‑own delivers what it promises—flexibility, transparency, and practical access. If this conversation sparked new questions or shifted your view, share it with a colleague, subscribe for more candid industry stories, and leave a review to tell us what you want next.

Chapters

• 0:00 Live Intro And Guest Setup
• 2:01 Brad’s Path From Law To RTO
• 6:20 Lease Versus Credit: The Core Fight
• 12:30 Class Actions, Bankruptcy, And Strategy
• 18:05 Legislative Trench Work And Tactics
• 25:45 Vermont APR Push And The Music Angle
• 30:40 Hot States: Minnesota, Wisconsin, New Jersey
• 37:00 APRO Coordination And Model Laws
• 43:30 Compromises In California’s Framework
• 49:05 Consumer Outcomes And Complaint Data
• 54:30 Keeping Momentum And Memory In D.C.
• 1:00:20 Pride, Near-Wins, And Wisconsin Lessons

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:03

I hope we know and guess what? Today we're doing another live video. Have you seen them before? You've seen them on the show. Brad's going to be the regular on here before we're all done. Brad Edison is probably somebody who has uh seen more on the other side of the fence than we have. It's not operating. This is all the main things that happened years ago as legal counsel for Reddit or Brad Edison. How are you doing today? I'm excellent. So got a question for you. Now that you've been doing this a long time, what do you do in your own podcasting?

SPEAKER_02: 0:37

That'll be a while, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 0:41

We're not going to do the editing show anytime soon.

SPEAKER_02: 0:43

No, I think uh I think that's better left to people like you.

SPEAKER_01: 0:48

Well, we appreciate it. So I wanted to know, you are on the Legends series because a lot of the things that you've done, how long have you been doing rent to own right now? As whether it'd be on one side of the fence or the other.

SPEAKER_03: 0:59

So I I joined Rena Center back in June of 1991. Uh so that's when I got my start, left there in 2001, right before the uh 9-11. And then uh we bought some music stores, a couple of music stores and live sound business out in Colorado Springs, and did actually rent to own music instruments there out of those stores. So renting tubas and trombones, trumpets. Uh and then in 2006, uh, Danny Wright, who founded BMS, asked me to come back and and work for them. So kind of switched sides to the vendor side of things in 2006, and I've been here, been there uh ever since.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50

So we're talking about 1991, which is uh so 34 years ago? Is that what we were talking about? Sounds like it. So how did you get started? Where did you come in? Let's get let's go back and I guess a little bit more. What is your background?

SPEAKER_03: 2:06

Do you have a legal background as far as so yeah, I I was practicing uh starting my career practicing law in Wichitawk, Kansas, the the home of Rena Center at the time, and met different people in in my career. Uh, and then uh in 1991, uh there was a person that I grew up with in Eureka, Kansas, my hometown, who worked at Rena Center, and I was talking to her, and she said, uh, you know, Rena Center's looking for another attorney. And somehow that got back to Ron DeMoss, who was uh an attorney for Rena Center at the time, and Ron was familiar with me from the firm that I'd worked at in Wichita. So Ron called me up and and asked if I'd be interested in uh taking a look at Rena Center. And to be honest, I'd I had no familiarity with Rent Tone at the time. Uh so it was an interesting uh set of interviews where I was uh uh you know kind of completely in the dark on on what that industry involved and and why they needed so many attorneys and and uh and the history of that. So it it's a it was uh something that I wasn't looking for, but uh glad I found it.

SPEAKER_01: 3:28

So in 1991, somebody comes to you, they tell you this is probably a good fit. Check it out, you check it out, you come on board. What was it about rent a center uh and rent to own at that time that made you decide I'm gonna give this a try? And then stay for as long as you have.

SPEAKER_03: 4:15

I was very sad to be leaving a life that I really loved. But what drew me to Rena Center was Ron Damas and the other people at Rena Center at the time, Chris Korse, Dave Egan, the people there that uh really convinced me that this was an exciting uh part of of the you know company's growth with what they're doing as far as legislatively litigation, and that you know, it's very exciting. And and I I was attracted by the idea that you could go in to a job instead of fighting battles for people that had already made a mistake and got in trouble, that you could help prevent a mistake or structure, you know, help structure a business so that it would avoid legal uh pitfalls in the future.

SPEAKER_01: 5:05

So I I gotta ask, because when you said that somebody came to you, they had an opening, it looked like they needed more. They needed a little bit more firepower, they needed a little bit more expertise on the bench. What was going on that time legally that Rennes Center uh or the rent-owned industry needed somebody with your expertise to come on board and help them out? What was going on? What were the legal hot points at that time at that time?

SPEAKER_03: 5:28

Well, you know, at that juncture, there was a lot going on. Um I'm not sure, you know, I think I was just hired because they needed additional people, not because uh I had the magic bullet that could cure all the rent center or the rent-to-own issues that we were going through at the time. But, you know, there were several class action litigation uh lawsuits going on uh that involved whether the transaction was a lease or a sale. And uh, you know, for people that don't know about that battle, uh the whole issue, you know, that was in the middle of passing all the rent-to-own laws that now govern the transaction. But back then, during that process, there was still a big question of whether a transaction that allows somebody to get ownership at the end should fall over into the credit, you know, loan uh category, or it should be in the lease category. And obviously, rent to own was structured so it had a little bit of both. You could get ownership, but there was no obligation at the outset or any time through the transaction. And so that was the argument and the battle that was being fought at that time. There were several class action uh lawsuits about it. There was also, you know, a team of people out trying to pass laws and then also defending legislation that we had already passed.

SPEAKER_01: 6:54

So let me ask you a question. What route did you take with your with your you know, as you join, now you're in a group and Ren a Center has a legal team. How did that legal team, what were approaches did you take to overcome or help overcome some of these class action lawsuits that we don't have now because we were able to win those battles then?

SPEAKER_03: 7:15

Yeah. Well, the uh you know the battles on the class action front, um, and you know, at the outset I wasn't directly involved in those, but I was uh I did handle the litigation for Renaissance or somebody sued saying that uh you know the refrigerator that was delivered didn't work right or or that somebody uh mistreated them somehow or was abusive in their collection practices. I handled all that uh litigation and and other things uh in the legal department. But the for the class action um litigation, you know, that was just basically battling on the facts that even though this transaction did does get give uh ownership at the end, or there's a potential for ownership at the end, there's never an obligation to do that. And so in the history of you know the United States, that obligation is key to making something credit. You can't have a loan if there's no obligation to pay anything back. So uh it was really a battle based on the legal facts, and we were generally successful. We did have some some losses, but more often than not, we won those battles. But they were also Renaissance was battling on the bankruptcy front. So uh people would in bankruptcy would say, I want to dismiss the I want to treat this transaction as a credit transaction. And so we battled all those. So I have a book somewhere, uh a notebook filled with all the bankruptcy cases that we battled, hundreds of them. And so that was constantly going on. Uh Steve Smith, who was in our department, wrote an article with Barclay Clark, who was a very well-known professor at the time on UCC law, uh, wrote a uh law review article about why rent tone is is a lease, not a sale. Um and so that's kind of how that battle worked. And at the same time, you know, everybody was busy with legislation. Can you try to fix it, try to fix it in the legislature rather than battle it in the courts?

SPEAKER_01: 9:37

Right, right. Can you give me a uh, you know, can you walk me through one of the more mem uh can you walk me through one of the more memorable uh legislative fights that you had that you had to go through?

SPEAKER_03: 9:52

You know, I'm gonna uh divert a little bit from the legislative fight and and tell you a story, kind of put it in perspective. So I had come from a large uh law firm, second largest in in Kansas, and so we'd done a lot of high-end uh litigation. We represented Amico Oil and Koch Brothers, different different uh large entities. And so I came from it from a little different background, and so when I first started at Rennes Center, they handed me all the policy manuals and said, you know, in your spare time, go read these. And so I took them home and I was reading through them, and I was like, man, it's a good thing they hired me because these people are thinking that they're going to give it very expensive equipment to people that have bad credit. That sounds like a horrible idea to me. So uh obviously it's a horrible idea that's turned out to be a phenomenal idea that's benefited millions of customers that wouldn't have access to the goods that they now have access, and it's made you know very good living for a lot of people in the industry. Yeah, well for sure. From the legislative standpoint, so I was I probably started on the legislative side in 1995. Uh Chris Kor, Dave Egan, Chris Kors, Ron DeMoss had had handled the laboring ore on that for the company for for the years prior to that and and done a phenomenal job. Uh I remember when I started there, Chris Kors was literally never in the office because he was always on the road uh trying to pass legislation or battle legislation, you know, battle bad legislation that tended to would put put us out of business. So I started in '95 or '96 and started doing passing uh some of the state laws. Uh and one of the funny stories uh, not about passing a law, but the law had been passed in Vermont, which was a little different than most of the the state laws that we tried to pass. We had a Model Act that we would introduce uh in the various states. But in Vermont, uh even though we'd passed this rent-to-one law, they were trying to put an APR, an annual percentage rate disclosure on the transaction and require each rental dealer to disclose the annual percentage rate. Made no sense from a from a legal factual standpoint, but these were people that just didn't like rent-to-own and thought that uh you know we needed an APR, despite the fact that we had all these disclosures telling customers exactly how much they would pay if they rented to the inn, exactly how much they had to pay each week to keep the merchandise. Uh so we were up there battling that. And as was typically the case when I would go into a state, we get local rental dealers. Uh hopefully that that some of them know some of the state legislators, and then we always tried to recruit a music dealer. Because even though sometimes people don't understand why somebody would want to pay you know more money to rent something instead of just going down and plopping their credit card down, they do understand the music aspect of it because most of them had rented instruments or their kids were renting instruments. So we show up with this music dealer, and the people on the committee all knew this person. He'd been in around, I think, since the beginning of the state of Vermont. And uh so people were just going crazy over him, going, Yeah, my dad rented a trumpet from you, I rented a trumpet from you, and now my son's renting a trumpet from you. And so I thought to myself, we have really got this nail because nobody's gonna hurt this guy. And he did a great job of explaining why rent tone was important and why he needed it to stay in business. And so I really thought we had it, and somebody on the committee, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:07

That's a good angle. I mean, I didn't really think about that, but that's a great angle to to represent exactly what we do.

SPEAKER_03: 14:13

Yes. Uh it was just easier to understand. The the needs sometimes are a little bit different, but it puts the perspective of having a transaction that allows you to get in easy and get out easy, puts it in context that people can understand. Uh anyway, somebody on the committee kind of piped up and said, I've got an idea. Let's just exempt music instruments from the rent-town law. So that's not my back to the battle, but uh we eventually won. But uh anyway, there's there's funny things like that happen all the time. And in addition to local dealers and uh music dealers that we would recruit to help us with this, uh we'd also get customers because they told the best stories ever. Uh there was one woman in Wisconsin that uh uh we were doing a video, we hired a videographer to do interviews of uh customers coming in and out of the store. And so uh the videographer said to this woman coming out of the store, is, you know, what do you rent? She said, I rent a TV. And she said, Well, you know, the AG is challenging this transaction, saying that, you know, it it shouldn't shouldn't exist. You should have to use credit to get this your TV. What do you have to say to that? She said, Well, the AG probably has a TV.

SPEAKER_01: 15:45

I don't put it in perspective. You might have a TV, but I do not. You gotta you gotta love the story. You know, one of my notes are telling me uh as as I'm doing a little bit of research that there were some pretty hot states around that time frame. Uh you know, Texas, uh, Florida, California. Was there anything in those states that kind of stood out to you that that really made them seem like they were hot spots?

SPEAKER_03: 16:11

So so those states uh all preceded me. So that would have been probably Chris Korst or Ron Damas that worked on those states. The states that were the hot spots while I was there, I mean really hot spots, were Wisconsin, Minnesota, and New Jersey. And then you'd have those are the states where we were trying to pass a law, even though we'd actually already passed a law in Minnesota, and that was an interesting case because we had uh there was a class action lawsuit pending in Minnesota and against Rena Center. Rena Center won that class action lawsuit, so lease versus sale, uh convinced the the court that it was a lease, and so we won that lawsuit. While that lawsuit was pending, we passed a law, a rent-town law, that says this is a credit sale, not a lease, uh this is a lease, not a credit sale. After that, we had another class action that uh somehow uh the court was able to find that it was a credit sale, not a lease, even though the law clearly uh stated otherwise. And that's why you know to this day, even though there's a uh rent-to-one law on the books, people aren't doing rent-to-own in Minnesota because of that court ruling.

SPEAKER_01: 17:36

Well, I while you mentioned it too. I mean, Wisconsin and New Jersey aren't the greatest uh rent-to-owned states either. As a matter of fact, uh I think there are a lot less dealers in those states, if any dealers at all. Are they all basically set up that way? Is Wisconsin along with Minnesota and New Jersey kind of in the same boat as far as the laws that are concerned in those states?

SPEAKER_03: 17:55

So Wisconsin and New Jersey do not have rent-to-owned laws. Uh one of the two uh, you know, there's 47 state laws, I believe, and and so they're one of the two that don't have a law. Minnesota has a law, but uh the court system chose to to ignore it. Uh so in Wisconsin, you know, the AG there way back in the 90s took the position that it's a credit sale, not a lease. And so, you know, there's companies up there that are doing variations of rent tone, I believe, and then companies that are just doing credit up there, which obviously limits the number of people that you can offer the transaction to. So you've been doing that. Jeff Leboch Jeff Lebaken and I literally wore out multiple pairs of shoes walking around the statehouse in Wisconsin uh trying to tell the rent home story. And uh we were able to get it actually passed out of both houses a couple of times and uh just couldn't get it past the governor.

SPEAKER_01: 19:06

Yeah, uh well, I mean, it's a fight for sure, you know. And when you talk about going back that far, you know, APRO has a starting point that was much earlier than that. How did was RAC a part of April at that time? And and how did the you guys coordinate to get some of this stuff done?

SPEAKER_03: 19:25

Well so at what point in time? When I was involved?

SPEAKER_01: 19:29

91 and 95, 96.

SPEAKER_03: 19:31

Yes. So yeah, we would coordinate. I was uh at one point chairman of the government relations committee at APRO, so we'd discuss all the states. So you know, typically we'd have two or three, maybe four states where we were trying to pass laws, but then we'd have a list of six, seven, sometimes ten states where somebody was trying to repeal a rent tone law or introduce an amendment to it that would cause problems. Um and so Yeah, we would coordinate with April. Apro would help get the the rental dealer association involved. Uh and then you know I would come in and and uh work on the bill language. And again, we were working most of the time off of a Mot Lat. And so I would meet with all the state legislators. We we Rent Center would hire lobbyists in those states and uh go meet with the state legislatures. We'd recruit a bill sponsor to do it and uh try in both houses get a bill sponsored and then basically go and you know that was when the hard work began of going office to office trying to convince people to tell the story and try to convince people that uh it was a good story. And and frankly, the good story part was fairly easy for most people. There's certain people that just believe if you're renting stuff to people that have less money, you should be charging them less, not more. And you know, that's a difficult uh hurdle to overcome, but we did it in most cases, and you know, 47 state laws we were successful uh in doing that. The harder part for the most part was convincing somebody that this was a worthwhile cause. Not not that rent tone is bad or good, but you know, there's only so many bills that can pass in a year. Why should this be one? And one time at the federal level, uh it was interesting because I was in somebody's uh you know, congressman's office, and he said, So why should I do this for you? And I said, Because it's the right thing to do. And he goes, Son?

SPEAKER_02: 21:47

See all those filing cabinets over there?

SPEAKER_03: 21:50

Those are all full of right things to do. Why should I do yours? And and so that was the hurdle, you know. You're not curing cancer, uh, you know, you're not making the school system better. And so it's hard to it it was more difficult to convince to get across how important this is to the population that needs rent-to-ms and how much of a benefit this is to the communities in which the rent-to-owned stores exist. And so once we were able to tell that story, obviously we had great success.

SPEAKER_01: 22:29

Is that really what kind of made it hold up over time? Is the fact that we've been able to say we're going back into these communities where you would say that somebody is kind of having a difficult time when we are going into the communities and giving them the opportunity to get the furniture, the appliances, the electronics that they need to be able to do homework, to be able to keep their house cool, to be able to sleep at night, to be able to basically, I don't want to say baby to the kids, but you know, give them something to do during the day, whether it be game systems, TVs, radios, uh, laptops, tablets, whatever the case is. Is that really a sticking point that really kind of helped drive that that home? Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03: 23:07

But, you know, I think so. We told that story. You know, here's here's why this uh transaction needs to exist and needs to be regulated the way we're proposing that it be regulated. And so we told that story. I think it's a great story, but I think what has helped is over the decades that these laws have existed, what we said has been proven to be true. So, you know, there hasn't been uh widespread problems with this causing issues. And if you talk to the rent owned customers, which is you know, we had them testify, that's where you get the stories of saying, I need this, I want this, I and what's even more important, I think, is I understand it. I understand that I'm paying more to have the flexibility and access to this merchandise that no one else is going to give me. And so I think when people understood that that people uh got it, they they knew that what the price was, and they're making a conscious choice to do that because it fit their lifestyle and their needs uh in their current situation, you know. I think that worked, and I think that's proven to be the truth over the last 30 or 40 years.

SPEAKER_01: 24:30

Let me ask you a question. As you're going into this and you're you're talking to some of the legislative branches, you're talking to some of the legislators themselves, you're going back and forth, you're wearing the shoes down, you're kind of sitting them down and explaining the stories to them. Were there any unexpected compromises or trade-offs that you had to make during these situations to get it done?

SPEAKER_03: 24:50

There were several. Um and I wasn't in the initial bill, I wasn't uh directly involved, but California is the perfect example. Uh, there's limit if you look at California versus the standard, what I would call the standard rent-to-own legislation, uh it puts a more of a burden on the rent-to-one dealer as far as damage to the property. It limits the ability to sell an extended service contract during the term of the rent-to-own transaction. And there are a number of things in there that just make it more difficult to do rent-to-own. But at the time, the choice really was go in without any protection from a rent-to-one bill that said this is a legitimate transaction and here's how it fits in the uh legal scheme, or agree to um provisions in the bill that made it more difficult and less desirable to do business there.

SPEAKER_01: 25:54

I know that California is one of the uh the most aggressive states in the country, and sometimes they are the leading edge of something great, and sometimes they're also on the backside of trying to get something done and just having to jump through a lot of hurdles to get that to happen. And I know that rent to own on our sense has always kind of shied away from California and some reasons uh, you know, because of those laws that they have in place, we don't have as much rent-to-own representation in that state as we would like to have, especially because it's one of the largest states in the country.

SPEAKER_03: 26:28

Um Right Well, and you know, that's the thing that I I think people in the rent down industry understand that maybe not everybody understands is that putting those restrictions in the bill limits access. And it doesn't make the transaction cheaper, it doesn't make it easier to get into the transaction for the consumer. There's nothing in there that helps the consumer. And like I said, I think the testament is these other bills that have been around for 30, 40 years have proven to be effective in regulating the transaction. Uh back when I was doing it, I can't remember exactly, but when you looked at the better business complaints against rent hone c companies, there were fewer rental better business bureau complaints than there were against floors. So it is not wow. The red town people understand that they've got to take care of their customer. If you have an unhappy customer, you have a person that's returning the rental, and they're gonna go down the street to another rent-to-one dealer. Uh and so just built into the transaction is the need to make sure your customer is always happy. And I think that's worked, and I think that's served the industry well over the years uh to make sure that no one looks at it and says, Wow, we passed this rent-to-one law 20 years ago and it's just not working. Just the opposite. Anybody that looks at it says this is working extremely well to regulate the industry. There's there's not problems. So I think that's it. And I think the the the flip side of that though is the people that are currently in rent own that just got into it in the last 10 years or the last five years don't understand how how much danger the rent on industry was in back in the eighties and nineties. I mean, uh Pennsylvania is a perfect example where there was a time when people weren't doing rent tone in Pennsylvania uh because of the AG there. That's been fixed now legislatively. But there there were there was a time at the federal level and in various states where we didn't know whether the rent tone industry was going to be able to continue to do business. And and now that's been pretty much quiet. There's been some hiccups along the way. New York, I think, has introduced some things and and it hadn't been perfect. But as a general matter, comparing today versus 20 years ago, the landscape is much more smoother sailing for reptile dealers. Um but it's important, I think, uh for the people that just got in late in the game to understand that that can change and that it's important to do things right, to support the legislative efforts. But you know, April, I think, has done a phenomenal job of keeping people, you know, going to the to Washington, D.C. every year, despite the fact that there hadn't been a bad bill introduced for the last, I don't know, 15-20 years. So uh I think those things are still very important. When when I was on the Government Relations Committee, when I was chairman of the Government Relations Committee, people would say, once we get this federal law passed, then we can stop spending all this money. And my response to them was once we get the bill passed, we're gonna have to spend just as the same amount of money because we got to make sure people don't forget why we have this bill and why it's important to protect the industry and protect consumers' right to have that transaction.

SPEAKER_01: 30:23

Let me ask you a question. What years did you serve as the chairman?

SPEAKER_03: 30:27

Boy, I don't know, probably 96 to maybe 99 or 97 to 99.

SPEAKER_01: 30:38

So you got in 91. You left in 2001, so that gave you a decade of doing exactly what we're talking about here. Now, talking about the reforms and you being on the Rena Center side, now I know that you were doing the legal part and that you had some wins and some losses on the legal side. But was there ever a time where there had to be like an internal reform from Renna Center to make it better or more suitable, something a little bit better, and say, you know what, we'll tweak this internally or we'll tweak that with the customers, or we'll tweak that with our with the way that we do things and our operations and our manuals to make it better or more suitable for the legislative to say, okay, you know what? I like that, I can go with that.

SPEAKER_03: 31:21

Yeah. I you know, when I joined in 1991, uh I think Rena Center was on a good a good path at that time as far as they had prior to my joining Rena Center uh come out with this, I guess you'd call it a campaign calling uh respect. And the idea was uh to respect the rent-tone customer and and that would pay off for the for the company as far as treating people right, making sure you're servicing them. And it it showed, like when I was there, we had store managers that were best men at rent-towned uh customers' weddings. We had we had weddings in the store. And it was not unusual to for some of the our rent-to-one store uh personnel to be pallbearers at funerals. So, you know, I I don't think Rent A Center is unique in that regard. I think that's what's made this industry so strong is the relationships and the the kind of taking care of the customer first that really worked. But, you know, I wasn't around before 1991, but I've heard stories that before, you know, in the 80s there were some dealers that uh may not have got that message. And and so I think April did a phenomenal job. Again, I'm looking back, and it wasn't my personal experience, but uh April did a phenomenal job of uh police, self-policing the industry. Uh when I first joined, I know they had a uh code of conduct, and I think that went a long way in in really calling out dealers that weren't following that code of conduct to say you need to do better. And I think if you look at the industry today, that worked. I mean, it's uh I don't think you have those people that are out there doing things that we'd all be ashamed of.

SPEAKER_01: 33:22

Well, I think in previous uh podcasts and interviews, we've talked about some of the bad actors that we had back then. Uh and and I like to say it back then because I'm with you. I think that there's been a good overall mix of whether it be April, whether it be TRIP, whether it be the RDAs and the rental dealer associations on the state level saying, hey guys, we've got to treat this properly because where one domino starts, there is a fall. Just like if we're getting it passed in states, we have momentum. Hey, this passed in this state, that's passed in that state. We are a state that doesn't have this, but as you can see, it's being accepted across the United States. That can also happen in reverse. You get that one fire and it's like, hey, this is not right. We shouldn't be doing this to customers, or this shouldn't be happening. And whether it's right or wrong, there's a sentiment that goes along with it on how it makes the customers feel in their opportunities. And if somebody feels that you're infringing on their rights or their opportunities, they're gonna stand for it. And then they can go in the opposite direction. Well, hey, this state says that this is not a good idea. Why don't we start taking in that direction? That's why I think the fight in New York is so important to get them to realize, like you said before, and I think it's been said many times, the laws have been passed. The state is regulated, it is working just fine. There are quite a few people that actually work in this industry, and it does a lot for the industry. So we're talking about owners, we're talking about people who rent the buildings to these owners, we're talking about the people who work in these places, we're talking about what they pay as far as taxes or utilities and vehicles and how they supply the communities with this product, whatever that product might be, to all these people out there, and it provides such a service, we wouldn't be in a multi-billion dollar industry if it didn't. And somebody comes along and says, you know, I think credit plays a little bit more in this than we're saying. And I think that's a fight that really has to be had. It's as important as uh it is to us, and as important it is to some of the regular, you know, the RDAs in New York and around those areas, it's great to see that April has people like yourself who have been involved. How important is it, you know, in your opinion, to have these vendors? Because now, you know, you are out of the Rennes Center side, you are with benefit marketing solutions, but as a vendor, you still help participate. And in your opinion, how important, how integral is it to have the vendors participate with APRO and other organizations to be heard on the federal level?

SPEAKER_03: 35:52

Well, I I I do think it's important. Number one, it's a different perspective. And I think you know, having different perspectives in front of a uh member of Congress or at the state level is always important. I I I failed to mention that when we were battling in Wisconsin, Ashley Furniture did a great job of contacting legislators, state legislators in Wisconsin and saying, hey, look, this is important to us. You know, it's important to people in our community. And it it was a great help. Um I wish we had we I think it's been so long that I've forgotten all the vendors that when I was at Renicenter that we got involved, but Whirlpool was involved and we had other vendors that were were helping out with the legislation. Because, you know, like with most things, you can look at it from a dealer's perspective and say, from a dealer's perspective, here's why we want you to pass this law. But really that's only a small part of the story. The other part of the story is from a from a consumer standpoint, from one of your constituents' standpoint, why should you pass this law? And then there's the other part of it of you know, this doesn't stay within the dealer and the consumer. It impacts other people, it impacts vendors, the community that the vendor serves. So, you know, when the Ashley Furniture does well, people in that community do well. And so uh, you know, like every other industry, it's not just limited to the you know, a guy that owns a rent to own shop and a handful of his customers. It impacts uh a broad range of people.

SPEAKER_01: 37:35

Now, as you're going through and you're talking to these legislators, whether you're a vendor or whether you've been in the industry and you're advocating for the industry as within the industry, how much do you think the FTC played in the opposite end of, you know, hey, this is probably a more of a credit transaction than a than a rental transaction?

SPEAKER_03: 37:57

Well, you know, I wasn't I've forgotten a lot about the FTC because it's been so long ago. But ultimately, you know, they didn't they came out fairly consistent with our position. They had some positions that you know we didn't like, but uh for the most part, um, you know, I don't think that ultimately, maybe not in the at the outset, but ultimately I think uh they saw it for what it was.

SPEAKER_01: 38:28

I well, I'm hoping that you know, the more people that we get on one side, and it's not like you're gonna win the battle, it's it's that's these thought. And the more people that you have on your side, the easier it is to make your case. But you know, you still have those situations, again, like in New York or you know, the Henry B. Gonzalez situation that happened a little bit before you came on, where there's people that are gonna dig their heels in and make a stand no matter what you do. And I think there's a saying that goes, you know, you can fool all of the people all the time, or some of the people all the time. Well, you know what, you can't please everybody all of the time either, no matter what you do. I don't think there's a situation where you're gonna be able to blanket the entire United States or or whatever you're trying to do and say, is this good enough for everybody? Because at some point somebody's gonna say, this isn't where it is. How do you fight that when you have those people who really dig in and get legislative to see? Okay, you're not you're not gonna say that you won over every single person. We're not at 100%, but the blanket majority, there is a there's gotta be a a way to say the majority of people find this to be relatively better in their arena and in what they do in their lives. You know, what if you get them to look at to see, you know what, yes, you might have a person here and you might have a person there who say it's not, but overall, the Better Business Bureau has less complaints than the flower guys. I've got a musician here. Where did those ideas come from to put that together when you're making your case?

SPEAKER_03: 39:53

Well, I think that you know, I think it came from a variety of people uh and a variety of sources. You know, some of it is just from doing it over and over again. So obviously I didn't uh come up with the idea of including music dealers. Somebody way before me did that. But it works and uh you know made a lot of sense. But there's always gonna be be people that have a different perspective than than we do. You know, that they say you shouldn't be charging people that can least afford it more money than you would charge a rich person. And you may not convince them of that, but when it comes to convincing enough people and enough important people like legislators, that there's a reason for that. And you know, it's just really the facts. If you look at it, you can't operate it. The the people that use REP to own generally need flexibility, they need to be able to enter into a transaction without you know going through the whole banking process and having a credit score that is you know 800. Uh they need that kind of access. And then when you look at it, when they whatever get laid off from their job or uh you know somebody moves in with them that has a TV, the ability to be able to return that, or their kid needs braces, whatever the case may be, more so than somebody that's making a million dollars a year. They need more flexibility in how they acquire goods. And so you can look at it just from a fractural standpoint. And at the time I was doing it, I think there were three or four publicly traded rent-to-one companies. And you could look at their bottom line, and their bottom line wasn't different than a bank or somebody that's doing consumer credit. In fact, typically the margin was lower, and it's because the expenses are higher in doing a transaction and allow somebody to return it a week later. And and frankly, it's you know, there's more expense in giving merchandise to somebody that may not have a good track record. Some of that ends up in a pawn shop, you know, or some of it ends up driving away and going out of state and you never see it again. So uh once you can supply those facts, factually the rent-on industry has got an incredible story, and that's how you you can convert some people. I mean, there were instances where uh, you know, over time you convert a legislator who originally said, you know, I had this consumer group telling me that you guys are bad guys. And over time you can present them with facts and let them talk to their constituents and they say, I get it now. Uh, you know, it's pretty easy to get once once they see it and once they're presented with everything. But, you know, back then that was a big battle. I think over time, like I said, you know, like with everything, if it works over 30, 40 years, people you know start questioning it as much as they did 30 or 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_01: 43:22

I think we're seeing a lot of that now, and I think we see that a lot in the youth is that they've come across something that has been here for a long time. They don't understand why it's there, and so they want to question the fact of its validity and find out, you know, what why is it really here? Do we really need it? Um, and without going through the steps that enacted people to step out and do those things to create the law, create whatever it is, they kind of lost sight of it. So sometimes they have that checkpoint. We've got to remind them this is what it could be without, right? I'm just curious, how do you think the role of compliance and ethics has evolved from your from your GT days?

SPEAKER_03: 43:57

Well, I look, I think um when I was at at Rennes Center, I think they were they were on top of their game as far as making sure that they did things right. I mean, we we had a I think at one point we had like 12 attorneys and we were constantly reviewing our operations, uh looking through policy manuals to to make sure that we were complying, not just with the law, like we would comply with the um Collections Practices Act, even though it didn't apply to our situation in our company. But we voluntarily said we're gonna comply with that uh because we thought it was the right thing to do as far as positioning the company. Uh we passed these laws that said we're gonna make, you know, we voluntarily said we're we're going to submit ourselves to regulation so that you know everybody in the industry is competing on the same footprint as far as making all these disclosures to make sure that the customers know what they're getting into. And and uh so you know, I'd like to think things have gotten better just hopefully over time everybody has accepted that this is the right thing to do, and then they look go, you know, next stair step is how could we even do that better? And so hopefully the industry's gotten better. I you know, from my viewpoint of it, it looks like it has. So, you know, I'm proud of it. And you know, one of the things to put things in perspective as far as where this industry was, where it is today, again, I I I've got the stories from pre-1991, and then I lived it for 10 years from 91 to 2001. But when I was there, and I know this is true to prior to when I was there, you know, this wasn't a job for me or any of the other people at Rentna Center or in the industry, you know, it was a mission. Uh last year I was at Rena Center, I took 45 legislative trips, 45 out of 52 weeks. And wow, and the thing is, is that using Wisconsin as an example, Jeff Leebach, and I don't know how many months we spent in Wisconsin, literally from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at night, roaming the halls looking for legislators to talk to us. But we did that, you know, for days at a time, for weeks at a time, for months at a time. And the people that were on the government relations committee in April really believed in this mission and they dedicated their life to it. I mean, it was uh it went above just showing up for a job. Uh and you know, I think that's what has made the industry successful because I can tell you when I started in 1991, there wasn't a lot, you know, a lot of warm fuzzies about the rent-to-one industry. There were a lot of people out there that thought we were, you know, not treating our customers right. And I think if you look at it now, that's that's turned around. And I think that's because of all these people that went over and above, way over and above, dedicating their own resources, their time and money to attend APRO events, to go out and speak to state legislatures, federal legislators. Uh and I'm so proud of what this industry has done and the people involved in it. Uh, it's incredible to me that APRO did a great job. And you know, it starts back in their original meeting with uh Ed Wynn, uh, the first executive director of of APRO. Uh you know, they got together on a mission and and wow, look at all that's been accomplished.

SPEAKER_01: 48:00

I completely agree. Uh got a question for you. Uh what's your most because you mentioned the word proud, it stuck out with me. What are you most proud from uh your time in fighting all these legal battles with Rennesunner as general counsel?

SPEAKER_03: 48:17

You know, it's funny because probably uh the thing I'm most proud of wasn't necessarily victory, Wisconsin. Um we did a great job there. And and I say we because there were a lot of people involved, customers involved, uh local rental dealers. Uh we did a lot of hard, good work there to convince a state that was truly set against us. Uh, like I said, we got it, we got the bill, our bill passed out of both both houses. Uh long story about why we didn't get it passed to the governor, but you know, to get a bill like we did in the environment we were in passed out of both houses was quite unaccomplished.

SPEAKER_01: 49:07

I can see, I I mean, from the way you discussed it and the way you spent on, I could see that it means a lot to you at that point in time and how much work you put in to get that done. And then here we are, years later, you've decided to kind of make a little bit of a pivot, and you're a benefit marketing solutions. How does that how did that pivot work in your career? And what do you do now that still helps advocate for the industry with BMS?

SPEAKER_03: 49:32

Well, um a number of us from BMS uh go up to Washington, D.C. every year and uh uh and take part in the legislative conference and go you know office to office telling the rent on story and and telling it, I can tell it not only from the rent owned perspective, but also from the vendor perspective. Um but then you know I'm gonna forget the year, it's probably been seven or eight years ago. Uh Indiana had always caused the retone uh industry problems. The retone law there, they had interpreted it as if it's not specifically included, it's excluded. So there's no place in the Indiana Rentone Law that says you can do a club program like the BMS offers. And so for most of the time that the Indiana law was in place, dealers in Indiana couldn't do a club program. And obviously, uh we've got millions of customers that benefit from having a club program. We have millions, or not millions of dealers, hundreds of dealers that benefit from being able to offer their customers that. So when customers unemployed, it keeps them on, keeps them renting. So it helps everybody. But in Indiana, they couldn't do that. And uh so seven, eight years ago, I the the dealers' association asked me to get involved and go up and try to help pass an amendment to the leg uh Indiana rental purchase law that allowed for a club program to be uh offered. And so we were able to do that. Didn't eliminate all the problems in Indiana, but uh we did get that law passed. And then congratulations on that win.

SPEAKER_01: 51:22

That sounds like a very big win.

SPEAKER_03: 51:24

It was, it was. And again, that was you know, group effort. The the Indiana Rental Dealers Association is a super strong association, and it's been strong for a long time. I remember back, you know, in the mid-90s, Indiana was one of the states where just every year somebody would introduce a bad bill uh to repeal the uh rent-to-own law, and the association would get together, I would go to Indiana, and we would really uh successfully get that stopped in pretty short order, but it's because of how strong the state association was uh to do that. And then, you know, we have uh various states uh uh where something's going on, and we'll participate and donate our own money uh you know to help out with uh uh help support the industry through uh you know individual contributions to some of the legislator that's that's helping out. Well, I don't want that I don't want I don't want that to be an invitation for everybody to come asking for money, but uh when it's important and necessary, we we try to step in and do that.

SPEAKER_01: 52:42

Well, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 52:42

I mean I guess we're we're all in this together. You know, if uh the renttown industry doesn't uh thrive, we don't thrive. So uh we know that we're gonna do our part.

SPEAKER_01: 52:54

Well, that's definitely the the the the togetherness that we need, the ability to you know be hand in hand with the industry as well as because I'm with you right there, as far as the podcast concerns, if the industry doesn't do so well, I don't think the podcast is gonna do so. I'm 100% with you on that one. You know, in in the final thoughts, I mean, where do you see the next rear frontier of uh RTO advocacy coming from? And what what what more could we do to help out in areas like, let's say, uh New York?

SPEAKER_03: 53:27

Well, you know, I think first and foremost, take care of the customers. Because uh, you know, I think if the customers are happy, there's gonna be less bad stories to tell to a legislature, legislator that gets them fired up saying, hey, we got to do something about this. And you know, most of our cases, as far as class action litigation or bad legislation, came from a bad story. And so less bad stories, less problem. And I think it's you know, continuing with that, being out taking care of your customer, the customers when I was doing it were the best witnesses at a committee hearing as far as telling why it's important to them, why they understand, because of the law that currently exists in New York, why they know what they're paying, they're okay with that. They've evaluated that against other alternatives that they have, and they believe rental is the best alternative for them. And then, you know, operating your business the way it should be, and and you know, when called upon, like I think it's more important probably for the local rental dealers to be involved in New York than say like us at B mess, but uh you know, show up for your state association, uh, be involved in your state association and and uh get to know your local legislator. You know, if you're a rental dealer in New York, you should know everybody that represents you and represents your stores.

SPEAKER_01: 55:06

I think that's huge. I I don't think that people do that enough. At least nowadays I've seen that you know uh they kind of just see everything on TV or they see something on a on a video that's been framed and they're just like they're too far away. And in terms of they're not. You should know their names, you could know what district are in the city. That's what we do every single day. It's gonna be very difficult for you to get something in the favor of an industry that we're in right now. So it's very, I'm very very happy to say that uh Brett and was on our side for 10 years and now it's part of BMS. Do we have favor? Not everybody knows, and I say that as in you know, a lot of people know BMS because BMS is everywhere. But what are some of the benefits that BMS adds to the rental program so that people can feel like this is a better deal?

SPEAKER_03: 56:21

Well, uh so each dealer can construct their own program, but generally speaking, the where we I think bring the most value to the rental dealer and to the customers is uh if somebody becomes unemployed uh while they're a member of the club, uh it waives their rental payments for up to four months. Let them get back on their feet, hopefully find another job. But for the rental dealer, what's important is it keeps that customer on rent. Uh because I think the studies have shown in the rent-owned industry, if somebody leaves, even if they leave on favorable terms, they're more likely to go back to another store than to come back to you. So it keeps them on rent, keeps them going. Same thing. If there's a fire, flood, theft, uh, lets them continue on a rental agreement, uh, same place that they left off, which is important because you know most of the dealers in the industry offer liability damage waiver, LDW. And great product because it weighs the customer's liability if something bad happens. If they have a fire or a theft, they no longer owe the rental dealer. The problem is if they're two weeks away from paying off that refrigerator, they don't have a refrigerator. So they've either got to go back and start over. Our program allows them to pick up where they left off, make two more payments, and the refrigerator is yours. So it really helps the rental dealer keep that customer happy, helps the customer. And then in addition, we have a number of other benefits. Accident assist. So if a kid throws a shoe through the TV screen, takes care of it there.

SPEAKER_01: 58:04

That happens all too all too often in rental.

SPEAKER_03: 58:07

And but then when something bad is not happening, we have benefits in the program like telemedicine, where uh kid gets you know sore throat at two o'clock in the morning. The mother can call without leaving your home and slepping her kid across town, can call and actually get a prescription over the phone. Uh no charge to the customer at all. They have to pay for the prescription when they go to their pharmacist. But the talking to a doctor costs them no money whatsoever. There's no uh I think that's a huge benefit of BMS. And there's other benefits in there. We got discounts on dental, discounts on dining and shopping, discounts on roadside assistance, number of other benefits that help people uh when they're not having problems. And our shopping discount covers a number of things, online shopping. Uh but where I think most people get the most benefit is in the food discounts, like pizzas, like buy one, get one free. Uh and a lot of our stores use it uh demonstrating to their people, hey, look, if your customer uses this thing twice a month, they paid for the club program. You know, so uh that's how it helps out. It it makes, you know, gives the customer a better life, lets their dollar go a little further. But probably the most important thing is when something bad happens, the rental customers are the people that are least able to absorb that kind of uh you know tragic event. And we help them. Uh three or four years ago, there was I can't remember the name of the hurricane that went through the um southern part of the United States, but we wrote a check to one rent to own store for a hundred thousand dollars. Wow. For for Danny. Merchandise damaged by the hurricane. That helps the rental dealer, obviously. But if you think about it, that's a hundred thousand dollars in rental payment that the customer we we put them back to where they were before the hurricane happened, like nothing ever happened. And so that's a big impact on that community.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:24

Well, I gotta say, that's Brad Dennison on the benefits of benefit marketing solutions. Probably one of the best things about Rent to Own is that you only get to have this uh when you have it in time of need. You don't need credit, you can get it fairly easily, but you can also get it with all the extras that Brad adds onto it with his experience for years and years and years, on top of being general counsel at Rent A Center between '91 to 2001. You've done you've kind of done a lot in the industry without being in the operations, and we appreciate it so much. You you you have a lot of um it sounds like there's a lot of passion when you talk about a lot of the things that you've done and all the all the walking, all the hard work, all the late nights that you've put into it to get those successes in those states. Brad, I don't think we could be doing it without you. We really do appreciate it. We appreciate you being on the show, especially what you do at BMS and kind of helping us out give that value back to the customer. Guys, I want to tell you, I always appreciate you guys watching. If you have any questions for Brad or myself on today's topic or just being a legend himself and you want to reach out, join up Pete at the RTO Showpodcast.com. You can also go online and hit me up at www.thertoshowpodcast.com. You can hit me up on there or the DMs. We have Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube where you're gonna see this. Brad, I'm gonna tell you I really appreciate you being on here and all the knowledge that you've given us. It's been a pleasure. And I will tell you guys, as always, get your collections low to get your sales high. Have a great one. Thanks, Brad. I really appreciate it.