RTO Legend: Chris Korst from Rent A Center

A small, scrappy industry took on courts, Congress, and headlines—and won. Chris Korst, longtime Rent-A-Center executive and counsel, joins us to unpack how rent-to-own went from “wild west” storefronts to a regulated, transparent option for millions of consumers who need flexibility without credit.

We retrace the late-80s strategy that changed everything: build balanced model legislation, center the right to terminate and return, and carry that framework state by state with local merchants at the mic. With APRO’s support and the Council of State Governments’ Suggested State Legislation as a force multiplier, the coalition moved from four state laws to roughly forty-five by the late 90s. Chris shares the scars and the wins—Pennsylvania’s shutdown, Minnesota and Wisconsin deadlocks, and the Wall Street Journal blowback—and how the industry’s answer was better disclosures, respectful collections, and real compliance training. Along the way, we dig into the federal fight to keep RTO out of Truth in Lending, the tax code victory that affirmed depreciation, and the later carve-out that kept the CFPB from redefining the model.

Fast forward to today: buy now, pay later and virtual leasing are reshaping expectations at checkout. Chris explains why innovation must not obscure the core safeguard that persuaded policymakers decades ago—the true right to terminate. When lease-like products erase the off-ramp, regulators see credit by another name, risking overreach that harms consumers and compliant operators alike. We close with pragmatic advice for APRO members and RDAs: collaborate relentlessly, lead with customer care, bring satisfied customers to testify, and keep the narrative grounded in transparency and choice.

If this deep dive gave you a new lens on rent-to-own, share it with a colleague, subscribe for more Legends conversations, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. Your feedback helps more industry pros find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Project Launch & Book Giveaway
• 2:14 Meet Chris Korst
• 3:28 Starting In RTO In 1985
• 6:31 Training Through Operations
• 8:56 Early Legal Climate In RTO
• 10:55 Crafting A State-by-State Strategy
• 14:07 Why Model Bills Worked
• 16:55 Credit Vs. Lease Battles
• 19:20 Turning Point: Suggested State Legislation
• 22:15 Momentum Years And Hard-Won States
• 25:15 APRO Collaboration And Industry Politics
• 28:30 Reputation Crises And Media Headwinds
• 31:25 Setting Standards And Best Practices
• 34:09 Federal Threats And TILA Pushback
• 36:58 Building RDAs And Grassroots Power
• 39:12 Tax Code Fight And Depreciation Win
• 41:25 Transparency, Compliance, And Training
• 44:00 CFPB Carve-Out And FTC Oversight
• 46:25 Legacy, Leadership, And Awards
• 49:25 Toughest States: WV, PA, NJ, MN, WI
• 53:05 New Models: BNPL, Progressive, Acima

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hi, I'm Pete Chao. You may know me from the Art Go Show podcast, but today, I'm doing something a little bit different. April and Wild Brands have launched a special project to bring the story of our industry to life like never before. They've asked me to sit down with some of the true legends we're to own, capture their stories, their impact, and their vision for the future. And now I get to share those conversations with you. Also we did something groundbreaking though. A new book. The Red To Own Revolution, a definitive history of advocacy and active, written by April studios called Fitman, and Wild Red Studio Fired Craft. The book explores the grassroots of RTO, the advocacy that is defined, and the future that we're building together. Here's where you come in. We're giving away three copies once the book is released. Just head over to RTORevolution.com and sign up for a chance to receive a copy in early 2026. Don't miss the chance to be among the first to hold this piece of RTO history. That's rtoorevolution.com. Check it out and become a part of RTO History. Hello and welcome to the RTO show. I'm your host, P. Chow, and today we have another legend on. This is Chris Korst, and he has, let me tell you, he's got years, years when I tell you of legal experience in the RTO sector, a lot with Rena Center. And you know, I I think a lot of people don't understand how far back these go. We're talking about almost what 40 years ago right now, Chris? Is that what that we're talking about? Exactly. Chris course has done so many things. So you were a chief administrative officer and general counsel. Right? Right. You were uh the EVP of operations, so executive vice president of operations.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 1:51

At some point. And you were also the senior vice president and general counselor at that's correct as well. A lot of hats. A lot of hats. Yeah, a lot of hats. On top of that, I I think you got some more words from April that we'll talk about very soon.

SPEAKER_01: 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 2:03

Along the way, I was uh I was honored and appreciated that. Yeah. Well listen, we appreciate what you've done because I I'm starting to feel like what I had here wasn't even near the surface of what we could really talk about. So let's go, let's go back. We're in the Legends series. Let's go back. How does how does Chris Korst in 1985 get started in Rent Home?

SPEAKER_01: 2:26

So that's a great question, Pete. Um I was in private practice in Kansas City, Missouri, um for the first two years out of law school. And I and my folks lived in Wichita, and I was back for a vacation of some sort or another, a holiday, whatever, whatever. And my dad and I went out to get a beer, and we ran into a fraternity brother of his uh by the name of Dave Egan, who was at that time the first general counsel of the original Rennes Center uh based in Wichita. And so Dave and I got to talking and we really hit it off, and he offered me a job as uh assistant general counsel, I think, was my first title, maybe staff attorney, something like that. And so November of 1985, started on the staff with Dave, and we went from there.

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

So then what did he say that bade that convinced you that rent hone was a place to be? Because in 1985, it wasn't as pronounced as it is now. It's it's it was a whole different ballgame. It was a little bit of a more of a wild west back then. In 1985, somebody says, I want to I want to introduce you to something that you've probably I don't know. Have you heard of it? But usually back then I get the whole I wasn't really sure I never heard of it, but we decided to go with it. Have you heard of Rentone before that conversation? No, I have not. Absolutely not. What was it that he said that that pulled you in?

SPEAKER_01: 3:43

So so it's interesting, you know. First of all, cards on the table. I was a young attorney, had an opportunity to move and make a little bit more money, and it sounded like an interesting gig. And Dave was just such a great guy that it was pretty easy to say yes. And so I joined and and really just began to learn about rent to own. And and it was it was great the way Dave sort of trained me. He put me with the operators so that I would help them write an operations manual. And so just learned about how operations worked. And working side by side with the operators then um, you know, was a great experience for me and and really helped me kind of understand inside, forget the legal part of it, just how rent to own worked and you know who who used those services and why. And so that that was a great experience, uh learning experience for me.

SPEAKER_00: 4:37

So starting in the beginning, and from what I understand, there are there are different things that you've done since 1985, a lot of which could be with rent to own and some of it wasn't. You get to take a little bit of a hey hiatus. I I know a few people that have. I know I have to, so I won't hold it against you. But you know, a lot of things uh that uh really uh uh uh kind of sparked my interest is that uh there was a lot of things going on in the rent-to-owned space as far as legal situations back then. There were a lot of states that were just now starting to get into the laws of rent-to-owned because there weren't, you know, any precedent before that. Um and then there were some trials and tribulations that came up in the 90s that were like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be really tough on rent to own. And I would imagine that you saw all of that at some point. So as you started 1985, where did you go from there?

SPEAKER_01: 5:28

So first couple of years, I really focused on learning the business and working on the various legal issues that the company was facing, a lot of labor and employment uh issues, as you might guess, and um a lot of growth, so some acquisition work and and what have you, really the basics of legal work. But beginning in uh 1987, Dave asked me if I would help him on uh a state legislative initiative that was just being put together. Dave, of course, was working closely with the great Ed Wynne and uh and an attorney whose name you may have heard before, Sam Choate, um, brilliant attorney and strategist. And so uh those three were working on trying to put craft this master plan for how do we address in a proactive way you know the overarching lease versus sale issue, because it was apparent that fighting in the courts and hoping judges understood and really fighting in a lot of bankruptcy courts where equity ruled the day more often than not, it was pretty easy to see that was a losing proposition long term. Really, early 1987, the four of us talked and and and at various points separately and then together and put together really a master plan of uh a state-by-state march, if you want to think about it that way. We had legislation that had been passed by then in Michigan and Texas and Georgia, and New York had just come online as well. And so those are the first four states, and we used a form of those bills as what you might think of as model legislation, and we began to carry it to the different state legislatures. We would hire local lobbyists, fly into the Capitol, meet with legislators, organize a state association almost every time, which was critical to the effort, Pete, as you can imagine, because the local people really made the lift when it came to the legislatures in these various states. They wanted to hear from people who lived in those states who were local merchants and so forth. And time, time after time after time, the local rent-to-owned merchants stepped up, testified before committees, answered questions, organized into group, into state associations, and really were the engine behind what was probably the most remarkable run, and I say this, knowing a lot about this, the most remarkable run of state legislative initiatives that I think has ever probably been occurred in in this country. Because we went from four we went from four state laws at the end of 86 to 45, 1997. And you only do that by collaborating, by pulling oars together and working hard. And the good news is, Pete, we didn't know we couldn't do it, and so we did so we managed to do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 8:27

I think that's always the that's always the silver bullet when when you tell somebody to do it and they just don't know that it hasn't been done yet. They don't know how difficult it is, and it's like, let's just well, let's get it done. And then before you know it, I mean there's an initiative, there's a build behind it. So you said that Michigan, Texas, and Georgia were the first ones. And then you kind of took those bones, that that fill out, and and kind of took it to other states. Uh how uh what were the main insights of those bills that got passed that you were able to use those as like the starting points for the other states? So that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

I I think I think the primary driver for our success, aside from the involvement of the local merchants and so forth, was the fact that we weren't asking for everything to be of a benefit to the merchant. In other words, the the legislation that was being proposed was very balanced, very reasonable, genuine consumer protection legislation that also benefited the industry. The trade here all along, and I and I think I listened to part of Ed Wynne's podcast, and he he touched on this. I think the trade here was we need legal certainty and a legal environment that allows us to be able to charge what we need to charge and make a reasonable profit. And in exchange for that, we're willing to disclose everything that the customer might need to understand about the transaction. And then, depending upon the jurisdictions, actually get into some additional price management, price cap uh sort of approaches to the business. But but I think Pete, the real the real key was the fact that we were we were fair and reasonable and we were promoting true consumer protection legislation.

SPEAKER_00: 10:10

Was there a difficult time? Because in some cases, there's a lot of people that say, you know what, it it seems very close to a credit transaction. And it's not. But you have to kind of spell it out that the lease agreement is different in different ways because of the credit transaction being almost like a permanent situation. This is a mark on your credit. You own this after that that situation versus the lease where you can return it and cancel it out and no longer have responsibility for the product. Was that a hard pitch in what you did? And was it more difficult in some states than others?

SPEAKER_01: 10:41

Uh certainly the answer to your latter question is no doubt about it. We had and and frankly, never did successfully um uh convince the legislatures in Minnesota, uh and New Jersey and Wisconsin that this really was a different animal and should have a different uh regulatory framework than credit. And so those states are what they are today. But um yeah, there was in the late 80s, there was a lot of um of uh challenges both in the courts as well as through the legislative process over how to best regulate this transaction and how to best characterize it. And that occurred both at the state levels, but also um you you and the the listeners may recall, may be aware that in the in the late 80s into the early 90s, um, there was a federal effort to amend the Truth in Lending Act to include um rent owners of credit sale under that um federal uh law. And so, you know, we were fighting on all fronts, and we lost a few. Frankly, I mean we lost Pennsylvania in 1988. Um it was uh it was a little bit of a sleight of hand by the chairman of the the House Um Consumer Protection Committee. Um but nonetheless we were we were put out of uh the rent-owned business um in a matter of days, and it was eight years later before we were able to turn that around, 1996. Um so yeah, there were there were um a number of places where the the narrative that we were providing was not um sufficiently convincing uh to get legislatures to um enact you know some form of model legislation. Now, I'll tell you, where things really began to turn uh came about in 1989. Um we had actually come in contact with a state legislative organization called the Council of State Governments, and every other year they put out what is known as uh suggested state legislation. And it's a it's a manual that state legislatures uh use across the country. I don't know if it's still in use, but it certainly was very popular at that time. And um we managed to get our um Virginia bill in that 1989 suggested state legislation manual. And and and when you think about the the impact of that, so the next year, 1990, we're knocking on doors saying, yeah, here, use this one. Use this one. Don't take our word for it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:17

Take the council of state governments, right? So you say there's four states that were in 86. Uh 97, there's 45. I think that's right. You're talking and and even if we're even close, you're talking 441 different states in a matter of uh maybe 10 or 11 years. Uh was there a hot spot set of years where it was like, man, this is you know, we have the right maybe uh the right presidency, maybe there's the you know, enough people in either seats of the House or the Senate that uh like the bill as far as the states are concerned? It was it easier in in the South or the North? Like was there like a domino effect and it was just like, you know, hey, we were really knocking on all cylinders, or was it because as you went on, you guys have uh were able to kind of fine-tune and hold your blade and say, hey, I know this works, I know that talking about this really helps, I know that getting this into the uh the Council of State Governments is probably a great idea. Uh did it did it come was it slower at first and then more at the end, or how did it work?

SPEAKER_01: 14:13

Um so it we did pick up a lot of of momentum coming out of the 1989 uh legislative season. Um and really from 90 through 95 or so, we were 94 maybe, that we were we were literally actively engaged in five to six states at any given time, and um were very successful in accomplishing uh our goals of getting getting favorable legislation passed. Uh, we had some we had some issues. We were constantly, I was in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, you know, for months at a time during that during those years. Uh spent a lot of time with Ron DeMoss and Roger Sharp up in West Virginia and Charleston, and we were very unsuccessful for a long period of time up there as well. But on the other side of the coin, I mean, it just got rolling. Where, and believe it or not, you know, part of my compensation at that time was based upon how successful we are were through the state legislative process, and the goals kept getting higher and higher and higher in terms of uh being able to earn a bonus is like, I mean, do you think this was easy because we made it look easy, but it it was not.

SPEAKER_00: 15:26

Chris, you're too good at this. We're gonna have to make it a little bit harder for you next year. And and you know, I'm I'm gonna say, I mean, it looks like you knocked it out of the park. Now, being associated with Renaissance this time and going through this, how was the collaboration between April and Renaissance? You mentioned Ed Win was the legal counsel for April for 40 years before he retired earlier this year. Like, how how deep was that collaboration with April to make these things happen?

SPEAKER_01: 15:52

Well, I would say we couldn't have done it without April. Um, and it's sanction of the effort, number one. And because Ed had such a credible voice, and I think still does in the industry that his support for what we were trying to accomplish was really integral and critical to our being able to go around the country and talk to rental dealers in Arkansas and Michigan and Minnesota and Colorado and Arizona and all the other places where we ended up going. We had the improvement tour of Edwin and April that really allowed us to be taken seriously and credibly by the state rental dealers. So that was a part of it. But it wasn't always easy either, because there was a lot of mistrust in some places over, you know, the big guys coming in. And does this really just does it benefit everybody, or does it really just benefit Renaissance and all that, all the stuff that you would expect? Absolutely no surprises. But, you know, we had to deal with those questions, and and I think in retrospect, we were able to do so, you know, successfully. But yeah, no, it was it was not a it was not always smooth. Even at even at the April level, the board meetings and the government relations committee meetings were oftentimes contentious, a lot of uh back and forth over budgets, over money, over how we were going to raise enough to do the things that we needed to do. Um, and uh but but through it all, I will say this, through it all, collectively, we kept our eyes on the prize. We knew what had happened to our colleagues in Minnesota and Wisconsin when we got put out of business there. We had seen the big checks being being written primarily by Renaissance Center for class action settlements and what have you. And uh people took that seriously. And uh so we were able to put aside whatever differences we had and uh and work toward uh you know collaboratively toward toward that goal.

SPEAKER_00: 17:45

Well, I can tell you right now, it's an it it looks like you almost had a state a quarter over the essence of a 10 or 11 year span. That's that's some movement, that's some serious movement. Now, I know that in the early 2000s there was uh early, probably I mean rephrase that. We're probably talking even mid to early 90s, you know, uh not just Rent A Center, but Rent to Hone in the as a total. We had a black eye. There were some bad operators out there that did some stuff that made made us a little difficult. They collected a little, you know, they collected in a way that might not have been the right way they should have collected, or there were some situations out there that kind of made us look bad. And that moniker kind of followed us for a few years. And I think you know, and I call it the dark ages. I think we came out of the dark ages in the early 2000s when it when it really came out, you know. I mean, Renner Center uh became bigger at that point in time because, you know, Thorn and and the acquisition and all that stuff with uh, you know, Rent's choice. But you know, going into the early 90s, mid-90s, and then late 90s, uh, how difficult uh did that become if there are some guys out there, some bad apples that are acting a certain way under collections and sales practices while you're out there trying to make these RDAs uh go to their legislative branches and say, hey, we we need a law for this because we want to do this the right way. We really want to be on the up and up. We want to make sure that you see how much money you're spending. We want you not to get locked into this, this it's not a credit transaction, and we want you to be able to own this. Was there that was there a dichotomy there? Like, you know, on one hand, you're trying to do the best you can, on the other hand, you really got to figure out how to get the news to people that we aren't what they think we are. Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 19:15

Um and uh you you put your finger on it. Um helping helping people understand that one way to address those outliers is through you know consumer protection legislation that gives consumers rights and doesn't allow merchants to do whatever the heck they want. I want to quickly add, because the the years have given me a good deal of retrospection, Pete, but I would say it wasn't just the local mom and pops who were misbehaving, and it wasn't a lot either, by the way. It just you didn't need met much because it it made headlines, but there wasn't a lot, and it wasn't just mom and pops. I mean, I I know I recall some issues that that Renaissance had in some of its operations as well. And and then the other thing is The the the stories are easy to over dramatize and and and and to fictionalize. And we know that for example, when in September ninety two the Wall Street Journal ran a front page article on Renaissance and uh had just horrendous misallegations, wrong statements and so forth about the company and our business practice and so forth. But this was back when the Wall Street Journal was still one section and it was the oversized paper, and we had the right-hand column on a Friday, and then you open up to the fold in the middle, and it was both sides of the fold. That's how that's how much coverage this this got. And and that made it made things difficult for a while, certainly. Um in a in a couple of respects. One, speaking to policymakers and what have you. And two, I think, I think some of my fellow rental merchants were a bit uncomfortable, you know, having to answer questions about what was in the Wall Street Journal and what Rena Center was doing. You know, so it it really got in the way, but only for a little while, because again, this this industry has always kept its eyes up and its march forward, whether that be through the legislative process or today, in terms of how focused the folks are on serving the customer the right way, you know, offering quality products, respectful collections, all those kinds of things, those are all hallmarks of what I've always experienced with the rent-town industry, and that is they care and they then they know what's right, and they're gonna do that as often as they possibly can.

SPEAKER_00: 21:39

Well, you sound like you played a big part in the advocacy for rent-to-own. And I gotta know, so what role did you play in Rent A Center um and helping the industry as a whole moving towards best practices? Was there was there an outline that you guys kind of worked on?

SPEAKER_01: 21:57

Well, you know, I I don't know if there was an outline per se. And we did really, you know, um, and and this really was a function of what we were trying to tell the state legislatures about us, you know, that created uh again a narrative around the right way to do this business. And so that that became our mantra as we went through these processes. Of course, April had its own, you know, operation standards, um, etc. And that has been around really from the very early days of of April is uh to you know set the standard, set the bar high for how you should, you know, take care of your customers and what have you. And so so but but more specifically, Pete, I would tell you my role in the in the in the advancement of the legislative agenda was really central. I was I was the guy on the road 40 to 45 weeks of the year. Um I got to about 42 state capitals and uh and uh testified in hundreds of of legislative committees, attended far too many fundraisers and uh all that sort of stuff. And and uh but you know, and and by the way, uh I'd I'd I'd I'd be remiss if I didn't add right now. There have been so many people who've helped me along the way, most importantly, um my wife Claire, because we had three little ones at home, and I was gone 45 weeks of the year. And you can't do that with just a superstar at home, and that's what that's what I would absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 23:29

No, we need we need we need to get her on here so that you can tell her side of the story. Like, you know, going back a little bit, you had mentioned that there was also some I think we both had mentioned it, but there was some federal attention and some some threats that came up during your time. Can you describe that to me a little bit and what they were?

SPEAKER_01: 23:48

Yeah. So um, and the first real critical threat came in in 1993, I think it was. Henry B. Gonzalez from San Antonio was chairman of the House Banking Committee, and he introduced uh legislation, an amendment in the form of legislation that would have pulled rent-to-owned terminable leases in under the definition of credit sale for purposes of truth and lending, which would have been you know, obviously devastating to what we were trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00: 24:16

Yeah, it'd have been terrible. That would have given it.

SPEAKER_01: 24:18

Yeah. But but again, in a tribute to um the moxie and and and and capabilities of this industry, we immediately rallied. Hearings in the in the relevant subcommittees were scheduled. We had members come up to Washington, testify, meet with the press, do all those kinds of things. And I gotta tell you, we were so effective that Henry Gonzalez was chairman of the full banking committee. He introduced legislation that got sent to a subcommittee, and it never left the subcommittee. And this is the chairman's bill, and it never moved. It never moved.

SPEAKER_00: 25:01

You guys were seriously effective. You know, talking about APRO and Rena Center, because you were a part of Rentna Center at that time and how effective you guys were, you know, the team of Edwin, yourself, and some others, uh I also believe that there was some some uh creating of the RDAs at that time, the rental dealer associations across the U.S. Did they play a role in their states as well, or was it like we showed up, we formed it, and then we helped them go with us to the Capitol and was it like an all-in-one swoop? Or was it, you know, some people had seen, wow, they're really effective in what they're doing for their state. We better get online with APRO, kind of create this RDA and kind of put in some groundwork before they have to get here.

SPEAKER_01: 25:40

Mostly the former. Once we identified a target state, uh Pete, we would reach out through APRO and independently to rental dealers in Mississippi or Kansas or the Dakotas or wherever else, right? And we'd we'd introduce ourselves and tell people that here's what we would like to do. And let's hold a hold an organizational meeting and and send out invitations. APRO was really the the driver of of that um that uh process of mailing invitations, notifying uh rental dealers, and so forth. And then typically Ron de Moss and or Ron de Moss, Ron Waters and I would travel to whatever state it was and hold an organizational meeting. And Ron just was just terrific with the rental dealers, so so easy to get along with, so credible, and so forth, that it really became sort of a cookie-cutter approach to how to get this thing going. Now, to your point, and you're right, somewhere along the line, that model changed a little bit, and some rental dealers began to think, well, maybe we ought to get organized, because then maybe those planners will put our state on the list to get moving here because we want to go now, not wait for years or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 26:53

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 26:54

So there was some of the some of that, you know, toward the later years. But yeah, it was uh it was really mostly front-loaded. Let's get everybody together, tell them what we want to do, ask for their support, try to raise some money, and then head up to the Capitol.

SPEAKER_00: 27:08

So after you know, 93 had Henry B. Gonzalez, was there anything else that kind of came up that really was like, you know what, this is something we better put our attention to before it gets to a point where we're already behind the butt, the eight ball?

SPEAKER_01: 27:20

Yeah, absolutely. So in '97, and I'm going to give generalities here because I was involved from a from a uh um advocacy perspective, but not necessarily from the substantive perspective. But there was there was a critical tax issue uh addressing depreciation in our industry. Um and of course, you know, the the notion of credit sale versus lease or terminable rental agreement is a critical one for tax purposes as well. Because if you're if you're a merchant and you're selling goods, you you you got to write that product off at the you know when you sell it. On the other hand, in our business, we know that um we depreciate those uh uh assets over the course of the rental agreement, over the course of you know 18 months, two years, or whatever it is. And the proposal on the table would have had um rent-on transactions included as credit sales for purposes of writing off the asset upon the transaction's commencement date. So we again we rallied, we got we got the right people with the right voices and the right information. We got up to Washington, and in fact, we're able to obtain legislation, amendments to the tax code that secured um and and and and clearly locked us into this is not a sale, and the asset should be depreciated, and here's a methodology by which you should do that.

SPEAKER_00: 28:46

So as you're as you're doing this, because you're you're championing, championing, gotta say this word right. You guys are killing it. You're going from state to state, you're making this happen, whether it's for Renna Center, whether it's for April, whether it's with the RDAs or without you're knocking these out, right? On average, we've said once a quarter, you got another state checked off and moved on. Uh but uh you know we said a couple things. Uh we've got to make sure that we're letting everybody know this is the cost of ownership. This is what you're gonna get into, this is what you're gonna expect. These are the things that we've outlined in our so this is what you can get from us because this is what we want to get from you, right? So you want to get it from us, we're gonna put you, we're gonna put it all out there, you're gonna know everything you're getting into, you gonna know how long you're gonna be paying for it, what you're gonna be paying for, if it's used, if it's not used, if it's brand new, whatever the case is. But at that point in time, uh then some of this was new. Some of this was in each area this is new to us, we're gonna figure all this out. Was there also an effort to make sure that there was these checks and balances, that somebody was going back behind you and going, okay, we said that we're gonna do this, but we have to make sure and ensure that we're doing this. And somebody had to go through with these audit processes and making sure that it was happening. Was that also something that you were a part of? Is that something that you helped create? No, not really.

SPEAKER_01: 30:00

In a handful of states, the way the regulatory uh framework sets up, Pete, um there are administrators responsible for doing that audit and confirming compliance and so forth, and correcting course or finding or doing whatever else the case may be. In in almost all the legislation that was passed, there was some uh state agency designated as the responsible party for enforcement. After these state laws were put into place, but before they became effective, we would routinely have a compliance seminar and invite all the rental dealers to attend. And and either I or you know, Ed Wynne did several of these as well. You know, others who came after me on the on the Rentis Center legal staff, the Ron DeMoss's and and uh Brad Dennison's and and so forth of the world would would go to the state after the law was passed but not yet effective and say, all right, here's how you comply. And here's a form rental agreement that you can use, or you can go have your own created, what whatever the case may be. But yeah, we would coach people on how to how to comply with the new new legislation.

SPEAKER_00: 31:08

So I that's something that this is actually the first time I've heard of. So we actually helped create the rental agreements that we adhered to. We did. In some cases. Oh, that's awesome. That's that's great. Because so then in 2011, uh the CFPB comes. Something that's a little bit different than we had before. That CFPB is now on the scene. How did that change things?

SPEAKER_01: 31:29

Well, in the end, it really didn't change much of anything, at least not until more recently, where the the CFPB had had a couple of years or so ago tried to grab the new virtual leasing uh transaction and pull it under its its uh authority. But Pete, in in 2009, coming out of the financial crisis, the Sarvaines Oxley uh bill was being was being uh prepared. No, that's not right. It was the later one. It was the uh um anyway, the the the the new regulatory framework that created the CFPB, um uh until we were able to get it amended, might well have put jurisdiction, uh regulatory jurisdiction over rent to own under the CFPB. Um we were able to get an amendment in committee that excluded short-term leases under which the initial term was less than 90 days, not under the CFPB's jurisdiction, but rather under the FTC's where we had been for years. And so we were able to escape that um, you know, that situation pretty cleanly. Again, working the committee in in the House uh and eventually getting that uh that amendment secured.

SPEAKER_00: 32:45

I think you know when you talk about the FTC versus the CFPB, I I have heard so many things about not wanting to be under the CFPB and how well we could do without that situation considering we've been running very well without it. I think that would be a huge overstep in the wrong direction, and I think it could really hurt a lot of rental dealers across the you know uh the United States because uh honestly uh it was never built that way. And I think that if it's if you know something that's not built the way it is governed will definitely eventually fail because they're gonna have a lot of overreach and then it's gonna cause a lot of leasing agreements to be seen in a lot of different ways. And uh, you know, I think they're battling a little bit of that up in New York. I don't know how much you know about that right now, but they're trying to deal with the uh some legislation up there to not put us in some different light. They've been governed really, I guess since you guys got New York changed over with some federal laws, they've been working very, very well. I mean, there's a lot of rent-to-owned um companies in that state and owners in that state and employees in that state are doing very well. So they're trying to, you know, April is working actively now to keep it exactly the way it is without change. You've got to play some very, very good groundwork on that. Um and then so uh what we're as you're going through this, you know, you have to put the transparency up. You have to let them know, hey, this is the numbers that we're gonna deal with, this is how you do it, this is how you regulate. Now I'm starting to find out we also had the rental agreements that you put out in front of I mean all these types that were put out and all these things are how did you how do you feel like uh Chris course was perceived throughout time? Did you did you feel like you've accomplished uh a lot in and what you meant to do during those times? Because you I would say you've accomplished way more than I think, you know, that that that was able, but not only did you that, but do you feel like you've left that legacy, like you've been able to say, you know what, I've really left my mark on rent to own, or is there something else that you feel like was coming down the pipe that you wanted to tackle before you left?

SPEAKER_01: 34:35

Well, my answer to your first question would be yes, I think I think the industry does have uh an understanding and I hope an appreciation for what role I played in a team effort, right? Because it really was a team effort. Along the way, I will tell you, you know, I was probably accurately perceived as a bit of a bully because a lot of a lot of rent owned dealers, you know, were worried, understandably, about, well, wait a minute, if I tell the customer how what the total is, they're gonna run out the door, you know, and and and and all these other disclosures, and oh my goodness, and and and over time, obviously that those concerns evaporated because it uh they turned out to not be true. But in order to get what we'd got accomplished in the amount of time we got it done, there was a there was sometimes there was some pushing going on. Yeah. I was I was doing some of it. Uh you know, and and so I understand. I understand, particularly the benefit of you know the years uh that have passed. I understand the that that there was some you know resentment to well, here comes Renaissance, here comes course, we're getting, you know, they're gonna tell us what to do and all this kind of stuff. I appreciate that. But I also hope in in in retrospect for other people they look back and go, well, I'm glad somebody did. Because this could have turned out very, very differently had we not been as aggressive as we were.

SPEAKER_00: 35:53

Well, I w I'm I'm telling you, just so that we can say a state of quarter, I'm I'm going back over that like that is some serious accomplishment, which led you to the April President's Award that you won. That's awesome. How was it how was it winning an award with that?

SPEAKER_01: 36:09

Well, it was great. Obviously, you know, you like anyone, uh I I gave a lot of my professional time and a lot of personal um sweat and and tears and so forth, um, trying to be successful on behalf of a group of folks who, you know, in turn expressed their gratitude for that. And that's that was the president's award. And, you know, I'm just I'm just really proud. You know, I'm just really proud of what we were able to do together. In no ways do I want to leave an impression that it was me, it was us. It was when I was when I uh you know got to a certain point, Ron DeMoss stepped in and helped out in California and West Virginia and other states like that, and he was awesome. And and you know, subsequent to all of that, um Brad at Denison and Dwight Dumbler were there, uh Matt Greenwald later in the later years, um, after we moved down here to Dallas, you know, we couldn't have done it without Ron Waters, who was just spectacular, and and Bill Keys was so supportive as well that, you know, so yeah, that to to have had the the honor bestowed, uh the presence award bestowed was was really meaningful. And and then later, you know, of course, I got the Lifetime Achievement Award after well after I'd I think people I thought people had forgotten about me about me.

SPEAKER_00: 37:28

Oh no, I mean you were part of a really big situation. I mean, without some of the things that you participated in, I I don't think I would have had the career that I had, because I've my career started in 2000, and uh I I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing today if it wasn't for you that was put in. Okay, I gotta say, I'm like what out of all this, because you you got you've got a big resume there, what was some of your hardest, what were some of your biggest challenges going through and getting some of these states done? Do you remember one or two that were like, wow, this was a challenge, this was difficult, this was something that I can write on my wall here.

SPEAKER_01: 38:00

Oh yeah. West Virginia was extremely difficult. Um uh and and took really I think my first trip to West Virginia, uh, I was actually in Washington with Dave Egan, and we were interviewing for lobbyists, and we had had dinner with John Raffielli. I don't know if that's a name you know.

SPEAKER_00: 38:18

Yes, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:19

John's a wonderful guy, great guy. Just talked to him last week again, and um, we were looking to hire John, and uh and Dave got a call from I think it was Roger Sharp, who was who was um you know one of the few rental dealers in in West Virginia at the time, and he said, Hey, we got a problem, there's been a bad bill introduced, and so I literally flew from Washington to Charleston uh the next day, and I was there for a week, and that was 1988, and it took us five years to get across the finish line there. So, yeah, West Virginia was extremely difficult. Pennsylvania, same thing. I mean, and and we were really out of business in Pennsylvania for all intents and purposes. We tried some different you know transactions where customers could get you know award points or what have you, and it just it just really never took. But it was eight years, and and as I said earlier, I was in Harrisburg every year for weeks on end sometimes during the legislative sessions. So those two really stand out. New Jersey, of course, we never did get there. And frankly, I don't think we ever got close. Now, Minnesota nut to crack, right? What's that?

SPEAKER_00: 39:34

That was a tough nut to crack, huh?

SPEAKER_01: 39:36

It was very difficult. It was very difficult. And and and that's too bad, too, because there's a lot of consumers who need rent own the rent own option in that state, and and and and the the environment has been discouraging to you know competition, which is which is not not good for anybody, I think. And then the other two that really stand out are Wisconsin and Minnesota. I think we could have at the end, very end of of the days in Wisconsin. gotten across the finish line, but ultimately did not. And Minnesota, it's a different uh story for another day, but we really got we got lied to by you know some of the players in the in the process up there about what they were planning to do. And we ended up with a piece of legislation that ultimately um a federal district court judge ruled as a part of the credit laws which it was never intended to be and so that's what we ended up in in so that's that's rough.

SPEAKER_00: 40:28

That's rough. Uh-huh if you were if you were to take a look at it right now, what's going on? There's there are different things. There's buy now, you know, buy buy now pay later. There's a couple other things. What are your thoughts on these alternative financing models and and how they can affect you know a lot of the people out there versus the way rent to own was built and our regulatory because you went and fought to make sure that not only do we have the ability to do it, but to be overseen very well. We have to stay within certain laws. We we have to disclose everything that we do. But now you have some of these other financial models coming up you know a CEMA progressive buy now pay later. What do you think about those models in comparison to all the things that you fought for these past couple of decades?

SPEAKER_01: 41:12

So from a consumer and and and and market perspective Pete, I mean these evolutions are inevitable. People need access and as long as credit is going to be based upon what you've done in the past and not what you can or try or want to try to do today, then credit's not going to be a good fit for two-thirds of of America on a regular basis. And so that that two thirds needed some options and we were one of the first in line right we weren't the first in line there were far worse options before we came along as you that's true. But when we came along and and really legitimized you know an alternative transaction to consumer credit, it was a matter of time before a couple things would occur. One, that that transaction itself would be picked up and employed by merchants to try to access a broader group of consumers, a different group of consumers. And heck I think I think it's fair to say that Rena Center was probably the first in that game because we were doing we were partnering with Ashley's retail stores taking their turns down turndowns and and uh doing rent on transactions back as early as I want to say 2008. And I remember that because the first place we tried that was in Atlanta and I had just become EVP of operations and I went down to Atlanta with Mitch Fidel and the store the Renaissance closest to the Astley store was where all the returns were were ending up and we walked into to this this this Renaissance store and I mean it had I don't know 700 units in inventory from all the pictures you walk into the big showroom you walk in it's chock full of Ashley bedroom furniture living room furniture no other brands very few TVs very few washers and dryers then we walk we walked out back and I'll never forget there were like four of these trailers full of the returns and so um and that was that was early 1988 or nine I'm sorry 2008 and um and you what what that told me though was um there's a demand that needs to be met. How do you do it? And and over the course of the years of course Renaissance figured that out but so have you know some other people um some other players notably um progressive and a SEMA um but others as well and uh so what I think about what I worried about and I and I if I were in that industry even today I would continue to worry about is the potential negative effect that those applications of the rent owned transaction to these other opportunities might have on um policymakers because it you know it's it's a different animal and it's being in it and it's and it's the it's the same form being used in a different way. And what I would say to your audience because I think they'll really appreciate this is one of the ways that we were able to be as successful as we were through the state and federal legislative processes is that the right to terminate and return the products at any time and then come back in and pick up where you left off was a critical maybe the paramount factor in convincing people that this was different. Right? And I'm I I'm I'm afraid that that's maybe not true in all of the other applications that the transaction is being used for today.

SPEAKER_00: 44:52

Well 100% agreed I I actually I actually believe that's why New York is in the place that it is now because these new actors that are in there and taking you know the progressive the SEMA they are getting more they're getting more steam. A lot of people are seeing it but the that deciding factor the other thing too is you know we still brick and mortar there's a place to return it to it's not just a line on a on a statement sheet it's it's you know you really can return it if you have that much trouble and and you know when you return it you don't have to be sent to collections you're you're no longer in a doghouse we can go a clean sleep come back later and pick up where you left off that's even the best part of it.

SPEAKER_01: 45:27

Beautiful story that really is a beautiful story.

SPEAKER_00: 45:29

It is it is but when you have these other situations where they're saying you can make these payments but in the sense that you can't return it and you're probably going to be liable for it regardless of what happens to it then that imposes the collection side of it. It puts us in a credit standard and it's like wait a minute we're not we're not there and I think that's what they're really trying to differentiate and identify down to the wire of what's going on in New York. I got to say though, I mean with all this all that you have accomplished being a vice president in three different situations you have the awards you've you've done a lot with APR. You've you know the Ed Wynn and every other name that I can mention in the book including Mitch Fidel what are you doing post Renaissance? What's going on now in your life? So great question.

SPEAKER_01: 46:10

So I was with Rena Center in Wichita until 98 Pete when I left I had actually spent the last two years during that stint heading up a new business that Rena Center wanted to get into the used car sales and finance business. Buy here pay here. And so when I left Rena Center in 98 I actually bought that asset from Renters Choice after the sale and started my own buy here pay here used car lot in Wichita and ran that for three years and then I got a call as I think I mentioned from from Mitch in February of 2001 and he asked me if I'd be interested in coming back and being general counsel and I talked to Claire about it and we I talked to my partners in the car business about it and we ended up coming on down. And so we moved here in 2001. As you said earlier I was general counsel till the end of 07 and then from 08 to the end of 13 I was EVP of ops uh which was an absolute blast by the way just I mean I had so much fun in that job. And then in 2014 I I moved back into the home office role as uh uh you know chief administrative officer and general counsel and did that till I left in in June of 2019. Since that time I've been mostly general counsels for two different restaurant and real estate family offices. So the first of those is now the second largest franchise company in the country and the one I just left last Friday when I retired from full-time practice was I think the fifth or sixth largest, you know, with all kinds of brands that everybody would recognize and so forth. So I retired on Friday from full-time practice but I'm now um a partner with Outside General Counsel, which is a firm that provides fractional general counsel and legal help to small businesses, big businesses, whoever has a need maybe you're a startup and you don't want it you don't want to hire a general counsel or you can't afford one, you call me and I'd provide those general counsel services for you know hourly rates and what have you and and so I'm anxious to get that started and I and I'm gonna put a commercial out here Pete any of my any of my friends and colleagues in the rent home business need any help you know please uh please reach out to me. I'd love to talk to you and and if for no other reason it just catch up.

SPEAKER_00: 48:28

Well I tell you what uh and and so what city what state are you living in now?

SPEAKER_01: 48:33

So we're still in Frisco Texas suburb of of Dallas and uh we've been here as I said since since the summer of 2001. Yeah we love Texas love the Dallas area a lot to to do around here and and by the way it's a great place to travel from just a I mean you're anywhere in one flight and right yeah you know it's just it's perfect. When I was out gallivanting around the country on my second stint with Renaissance I was just so thankful I was I was not back in Wichita where you know there's always a connection you know so you said it's a it's an area of of Dallas?

SPEAKER_00: 49:08

It's like a a sub-area of Dallas?

SPEAKER_01: 49:10

That's a suburb yeah so if you think about Dallas north of Dallas the the the next uh large suburb is Plano and then Frisco is just immediately north of Plano.

SPEAKER_00: 49:20

Oh okay all right so you're close to listen I'm gonna tell you right now um the things that you've done in rent own I'm gonna have to buy you lunch for some time if I'm ever in the area I would have to go to Dallas all the freaking time I'd be honest it's a great place I love that place. So you know you you I you've done so much it's really kind of hard to say one or two things. I mean you you you've had this established career that's amazing throughout years you know if you had to say in some final thoughts uh Chris you you've you've done a lot um going into the future you've kind of stepped away now you're doing your own thing aside from rent to own but as rent to own goes on and there are these new things that should be popping up including some of the things that are happening in New York what would be some advice that you would give to the members of April that you would give to the members of the RDAs that you know going into the future and as they come across these speed bumps, these hurdles, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_01: 50:13

So Pete, I think what I what I would what I would say is really more in the form of a reminder of what got us here and what got us here first and foremost was collaboration, working together, speaking with one voice. Second issue that or the second reminder that I would give is you know the high level of of customer care, not just customer service, but truly I've watched these the folks in this business for decades and it is customer care. That needs to be the forefront of the of the story and and then you know reminding the legislators the policymakers that you know under these regulatory frameworks customers are fully protected and they get what they want and they get what they need and and their their rights are fully insured. So you know stay with that playbook stay with that story and and by the way don't hesitate find some of your best customers and get them to go up and talk to the legislatures legislators themselves we we had a good deal of success with that over the years. And then because the the customers would put it in their own words more generally speaking T I would I would try to I would try to think strategically about um you know how do you create regulatory frameworks that have you know the right amount of variability depending upon how you're going to apply the transaction. Because by the way not only do I not not begrudge anybody but for using the transaction I'm I'm proud that we were able to legitimize it the way we did, right? Absolutely. That being said, you know the big players in that space should be every bit as protective of the right to do this transaction as we have been over the years. Period.

SPEAKER_00: 52:05

Agreed they have an obligation at least as much if not more so than than the traditional rent owned dealer right absolutely well I'm going to tell you Chris I appreciate you being on good luck and all the endeavors that you've gotten yourself through and now into I it sounds like amazing outside of uh Renaissance listen I would tell you guys if you guys have any questions please hit me up at the show. It's Pete at the RTO show podcast dot com. You can send me anything if you have any questions for Chris courts I will definitely send it his way because he's got a lot of legal tenure ship he's got a lot of knowledge and probably things that you want to know about. Also remember this is part of the Legend series. We are going to put some of this information out on the book that's actually coming out you don't want to miss that. But if you have any questions and you want to hit me up you can hit me up at the show also you can do it on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram. You can also do it on YouTube where you're gonna see this. Chris, it's been an amazing conversation I really appreciate it. And I will tell you guys as always get your collections low to get your sales high. Have a great one. Hey everyone it's Pete Cow here from the Arts Go podcast and I want to tell you about a company that's making a real difference in the rent-owned space WoW Brand. I've seen first hand of the approach marketing and let me tell you it's not just about ads WoW brands build complete digital ecosystems designed specifically for the rent-town industry their e-commerce elite generation strategies are built to bring qualified leaders that I mentioned that they are actively working with the rent owned industry while also being members of April and Crib these folks are passionate problem solvers they don't just slap something together they design build and scale the kind of digital retail tools your business needs that your customers actually want. So if you're serious about growing reach out to Wild Brands at wildbrands.com i trust it and I think you will too